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The real Muslim problem

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by robmiller, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. Indy11

    Gangster

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    Most certainly, religion was used by the Pope and the kings and princes of Europe to motivate the soldiers they needed to mount their crusades on the Holy Land. But given what has come forward as the conditions of Europe in those days, the idea that it was religion alone that drove the engines of the Crusade seems to be an over-simplification and, as far as the kings, princes and the Pope were concerned, seems to have been the vehicle for more secular (or venal) motivations. Why, for example, sack Constantinople in one of the crusades instead of proceeding to the Holy Lands as originally planned (4th Crusade in 1204)? Because the odds of success were too low and the Byzantine city was easier pickings.

    What may have started off being a religiously inspired cause quickly became more a matter of redirecting and marshalling large bands of armed men who could cause trouble at home and sending them out to grab sources of wealth outside of their home territories.

    It could be language, race, ethnic origin, or, as you say, religion. It is how one group may self-identify with another. In many cases, all of these elements and more are bound together as one package which I am more accustomed to seeing as being a "national" identity.
     
  2. @if ®afiq

    Soldato

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    A good article on the increase of intolerance amongst Muslims.
     
  3. Indy11

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    Thanks for that link.

    His is not the first opinion I have read in which the verses about there being no compulsion in religion is brought forward to show that religious tolerance is written into the Koran. But as we all know, what is written and what is taught often are not the same, unfortunately.

    Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti distinguishes morality from legality and he marginalizes legality to being one percent of the body of Islam as a whole and reserves it for civil, commercial and penal matters.

    My impression has been that legality or, rather, legalism, is by far predominant. The varying schools of Islam seem to be founded upon differing opinions of what the suras of the Koran truly mean (at the risk of suggesting heresy, an interpretive exercise), to some extent which hadiths are genuine and binding and which are not (an exercise in authentication of sources), and which interpretation or body of sharia cleaves closest to Mohammed's teachings. Do I overstate the case?

    If I don't overstate the case, what message would I want to keep from El-Shinqiti's editorial and where would he fit into the world of Muslim opinion as a whole?
     
  4. cleanbluesky

    Capodecina

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    I'm not entirely sure where exactly a thought like this lies as far a politics and Islamic thought are concerned, and not totally sure I agree with the analysis but it is certainly a pleasant read compare to many of the rhetoric that less enlightened Muslims favour.
     
  5. Dr Who

    Sgarrista

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    Ah but then billions of people wouldnt have any meaning to their lives..

    They can't accept that life is just life..

    ;)
     
  6. cleanbluesky

    Capodecina

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    Life IS life and much of what has also been promised. Whether you have interpreted this correctly depends on how satisfied with the results you will be
     
  7. anarchist

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  8. nero120

    Soldato

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    That was a very good article.

    Its interesting how the theory of islam has become so ascrewed with the real world. How islamic states clearly are worlds away from any road that islam has set out, and all in the name of control and power. It surprises me, because the people in islamic countries seem to be so volatile, if a leader rose up and united them they could surely put the country back on track. But, I suppose power corrupts and however rises to power says goodbye to his true islamic faith and hello to worldly power.
     
  9. anarchist

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    The one constant that transcends all religions.
     
  10. @if ®afiq

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    I am also surprised at the one percent remark, I would say that legality is a large part of Islam as with legality you get justice, and justice is a central part.

    The main four schools in Islam all fall under the Sunni band and hence they don't have any large "disagreements" between them. In fact, one who adheres to one school of thought is forbidden to look down on or try to make illegal the actions/beliefs of the other three schools. They are all thought to be correct. The hadiths themselves can no longer be disputed as we have completely authenticated collections like the Buhkari collection, which is thought of as the second most important book in Islam.

    However I don't think you are overstating it, as outside of these four schools, you have countless others including the ultra-extreme Wahabi and Salafi movements who are more literalists and tend to shy away from using reason.

    That I couldn't tell you. I am far from the best of Muslim's and so cannot really comment on Muslim opinion as a whole.

    The message that I get is that there is grave need of change amongst the Muslim population. A great amount of reform needs to be carried out, both politically and socially.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2006
  11. @if ®afiq

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    Just read an interesting article by Noman Hanif who is a lecturer in Political Islam and International Terrorism at Birkbeck Uni.
     
  12. @if ®afiq

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  13. anarchist

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    I didn't read it all but yes, in a nutshell - as I said in another thread - it doesn't matter who they are, what they believe in, or how evil their tactics are. If they will do our dirty work for us, then we will pay them. End of. And it makes a total mockery of the whole "war on terror" idea when we are happy to fund terrorists so long as they are fighting for us, not against us. Mind you that's the unofficial definition of a terrorist isn't it - basically anybody fighting against us - so technically we are fighting a war on terror ;)
     
  14. jumpy

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    man, how naive was that guy to start with?
    At the end of the day everywhere suffers the same problems; piety and religious conviction do not exclude one from poverty, theft and dishonesty and corruption. Especially in countries where, more often than not, the state has the final say over censorship, the media and basic freedoms.
    At least he had a choice after he realised the reality.
     
  15. Fop

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    Actually I'd say the vast majority of muslims want democracy and self rule (even in Iran there is probably more public support for democracy than theocracy).

    But there's a definite extremist minority that would want a Caliphate, but they are both extreme view and in minority (although perhaps not as rare as such views might be in other cultures in todays world).

    TBH there's a "BNP"-like minority in muslims just like there is in any human culture, at the extreme end people like Bin Laden down to the much less extreme (but still clearly bigoted) average person on the street. That's just humanity though.
     
  16. cleanbluesky

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    Any proof, a link or a hint?

    Be wary in this comparison. The BNP are a nationalist organisation, not terrorists - so if you are saying that Islamic nationalists are equivalent of the BNP I do not think it fair to say that they are in a minority due to the seemingly large amount of supoprt for attitudes within Islamic Nationalism that is often reported in various opinion surveys.

    If you are comparing terrorists to the BNP, you might wish to explain how you came to the conclusion that the BNP are responsible for acts of terror.
     
  17. Morat

    Wise Guy

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    The perception from islamic countries of the west, that is is a corrupt, moral free society is just a flip side of the right wing Christian perspective that Islam is full of barbarity.

    The main problem is not islam or christianity. It is monotheism.

    When a book informs you that this is the only way to live and that people who do not follow this book are incorrect, that the world was created for the chosen people and that others are sinful, there is the potential for conflict.

    Of course neither the Bible nor the Quran actually preach this. They both preach tolerance and acceptance. Neither of which are useful tools for control.
    Therefore; the focus is on the aspects contained within that cause more of a blind obedience and a strong self belief that this is the only viewpoint/law that is of any importance.
    Monotheism is the greatest tool to keep the populace inline so a government can do what they wish without fear of repremand from the people.
    Once a government supports the beliefs of those with religious conviction, they can do as they wish as long as they back it up with a "well god told me to".

    'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

    Polythesistic religions on the other hand do not state that this is the only way and are open to the existance of other gods.

    A statement of a one true god is an incredibly dangerous thing to exist.

    For me, religion has absolutely no place in government as it is impossible for a religious government to serve it's people with differing beliefs, or without beliefs.

    Anyway, more of a minor distractive rant than a continuation of the thread and I'm far too tired to be more coherant.
     
  18. Fop

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    You've just got to look at opinion polls in places like Iraq or Afghanistan or even Iran recently, it's harder to find in places like say the Gulf States, but even there given the ground swell it is a reasonable conclusion.

    But don’t, of course, confuse democracy for western friendly views.



    No I’m not, but the comparison exists, clearly the BNP aren’t terrorists, but then neither are Islamic nationalists, or even necessarily Islamic extremists. Of course there is a current Islamic minority that take such views to a terrorist extreme.

    Although I wasn’t really meaning in a like for like sense, but rather by “BNP”-like I mean that the natural condition of humanity seems to be somewhat bigoted and if we cannot find a reason we’ll probably invent one. :(
     
  19. cleanbluesky

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    Excellent post, my only addition would be to state that while holy books preach tolerance they also preach intolerance of behaviour, and to some extent certain people or people who adopt certain behaviour.
     
  20. wassap

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    No The problem is people, human kind, this notion that athiests or pagans or whatever are incapable ill doing is incorrect in my view, the people that commit atrocities in the name of islam or christianity would do so for any other form of believe, its just the big 3 religions are that big, that its inevitable that wrong doing will occur at one point or other, its generally when politics is added to religion that things go a bit pete tong!