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The Saudi understanding of sexuality...

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by cleanbluesky, May 16, 2006.

  1. William

    Capodecina

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    He raises a good point though, where should we intervene to attempt to give better social conditions, sex? race? religion? sexuality? anything? Should the state's force be used as a catalyst to bring about social change or should oppression be allowed to escalate to give rise to pressure groups both passive and active to give rise to a tipping point?

    Would force create a stable change?
    Would pressure groups take too long?

    :)
     
  2. lemonkettaz

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    so they are allowed to hate our culture...

    but we cant question theirs?
     
  3. William

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    Apparently we started two wars because of it. :-/
     
  4. ElRazur

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    Discrimination is every where, it is also rife in this country. Men earn more than womem, Some of our institution practice "positive discrimination" while others like the met. police force has been found to be "institutionally racist" by a public enquiry or so (iirc).
    See what i mean by sorting out our own issues, before we start spreading our gospel to other part of the world. :)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2006
  5. cleanbluesky

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    Yes, but on the condition that you smother their military, tear down their culture and assimilate them into yours - a la Caesar. And even when he did all that, when he built stone walls where once there had been wooden huts, when he introduced law where there had previously been tribal rule - he almost got owned in a Gaul uprising.
     
  6. cleanbluesky

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    We wouldn't be able to clean up our own back yard if we show tolerance for others that do similar or the same...
     
  7. ElRazur

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    If we are the "first world" and liberty and equality of all is our primary goal (so to speak), i think i will have to disagree and say WE clean up our act first.
    What happened to "Leadership by example"?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2006
  8. William

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    Or the French Revolution which created well over 100 years of Regime change in France which eventually settled out due to gradual change.

    CBS, what did you create this thread for exactly? It seemed to me you wanted to create a news thread to give rise to a free for all slagging match against Saudi culture, correct me if I am wrong. :)
     
  9. cleanbluesky

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    Close... I started a news thread on a topic that I thought a lot of posters would like to comment on - as you can see, not everyone is slagging it off...
     
  10. Liefrich

    Wise Guy

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    Location: Cardiff

    My dad spent 6 months in saudia arabia, he didnt enjoy it.

    He was on a military base but still he said it was not a nice country to live in. His point of view of course.
     
  11. wsurfa

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 16, 2004

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    ElRazur - if you do the basic maths you'll find the rquivalent wage for equivalent work for an equivalent period is roughly equal in the UK (within a few %). If you want to compare lifetime earnings in differing roles over a different period then the quoted gap is 16%.

    Tell me what is the average wage for a Saudi female as a % of male - would I have to ask her father/brother/husbands permission to employ her, can this employment be terminated at their request (not hers) etc etc

    Perhaps the plank in your eye is causing some difficulty when trying to find the spec in someone elses?
     
  12. William

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    Thankyou for your reply, it is good to read. :)
     
  13. ElRazur

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    We all know saudi have what we would conside an inequality issues, and from someone living here i would say i see your views.
    They have their own system, it works for then and vice versa. Perhaps we trying to apply a "first world" view and solution to a "third world" ways and what we consider a problem, is not always the right answer.
    The thing is, regardless of how you try to sweeten it and make look nice, the fact still remains we have our own problems regarding discrimination and inequalities etc.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2006
  14. ElRazur

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    I would probably say the same, if i have to go and live in the middle east (not the most peaceful and tolerant of all places in the world) and on top of that in a military base - Given the red alert status they are in most of the time, i dont think i would enjoy my stay too. My point of view of course.
     
  15. anarchist

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    It's very subjective isn't it - we assume our society is "right" with regard to women so any culture that is different is therefore "wrong".

    I'm obviously against stoning women to death for adultery and other such practices with proven harm, but when it comes to grey areas like exactly how far we take personal liberty, it becomes much more difficult.

    Is it arrogant to assume that our society's allowable level of undress is exactly right, and any more or less therefore either immoral or too strict?
     
  16. ritcH

    Gangster

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    We're the dominant culture therefore it's our right to criticise those who are a step up from Neanderthals culture-wise, because we are morally superior and that’s what superiority leads to. Just as being the Superpower leads to militaristic intimidation. I notice that those of you who are arguing that we shouldn't criticise the culture of others because we are incapable of understanding their values or that our culture gives anyone the right to be free to have their own values... that you do not actually disagree with the points made about them, you just disagree with making points. Therefore I infer that you agree with the points, congratulations you have an ounce of what our culture would consider, decency, about you.

    We are not assuming our culture is perfect just closer to perfect than theirs. Also I think it’s very empathic of us that we show concern for people living in a place (and time?!) so far removed from our own. Part of our culture is to care about individual liberties and rights, so criticising the Saudi culture is just a natural reaction to anyone in the West because we can't help but put ourselves in their shoes.. or at least what we believe to be their shoes through our media. What's wrong with a little compassion, it's just human nature, at least in the West and long may it continue.
     
  17. Nana

    Wise Guy

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    we most certainly can judge things on the basis of human rights.

    Extrapolated out your post could be defending all aspects of not just Saudi culture, but every culture, and therefore defending female circumcision and other genuinely barbaric practices and traditions... which surely you are not, because frankly it is indefensible and utterly vile and cruel, by anybody's standards. I reserve my right to be judgemental. As do a lot of islamic nations with their views towards the west.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2006
  18. anarchist

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    I'm all for equal rights for women and all that. My post really was about the specific point with regard to women's dress.

    As I said, it's subjective. Who is to say that our state of undress, i.e. it's ok to wear reasonably skimpy clothes, is exactly right, and any culture that allows more or less clothes is wrong?
     
  19. William

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    I don't think you can say whats right or wrong regarding state of undress.

    I would be more interested in this article if there were evidence to support that a large amount of women wanted the freedom to education, dress, driving etc and the state were forcibly preventing them from that.
     
  20. ritcH

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    Anarchist I wasn't directly responding to your post, personally I think the state of undress is not really a significant issue. I don't even care that hunter-gatherer societies run around naked although perhaps it's interesting that the least and most advanced cultures tend towards nakedness?!

    William raises an interesting point though although I disagree with what you are inferring, which is that if they don't want change we shouldn't wish change upon them. The simple fact is people who know no better are incapable of knowing what is best. What is best is often different from what is desired - take nuclear power. Our desires for change will have little to no effect though (going to war over culture as we supposedly did in Iraq is insane and was clearly a smoke screen), they only express our concerns and serve to remind us how lucky we are to live in our culture and how important it is to keep our freedoms etc...