Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by cleanbluesky, May 16, 2006.
Proof that there is a lack of integration? Or is it like the banned piggy banks?
People are tribal beings and find identity in small groups. People within tribes are prejudiced against people from other tribes and want to stick within tribes that they can relate to.
There is often rivalry between pupils at different schools for no reason other than they have a sense of tribal belonging, rivalry between football club supporters, English and Scots and so on and so on.
It is simply our nature to group with people similar to ourselves. I don't want my daughter going to school with a bunch of people with a very different outlook onlife to that which I wish to instil in my daughter, I don't desperately want her to be mixing with kids from Chav families for example.
It is simply human nature to be prejudiced and tribal which is why multiculturalism fails. Yes we have multiple cultures living in this country but no they are not intergrating and no I don't think that it is working in anything like the way it is promoted.
I was talking about a lack of British integration in Spain. Such ideas have achieved urban myth status in SC because the concept of Brits who wont integrate would make us seem like hypocrites for criticising others within our borders who dont integrate - and the idea of such a hypocracy seems to appeal to the members who mention this in such debates.
I am not sure that there is a such a lack of Brit integration in Spain, nor am I sure I would class that as a lack of integration. If rich Spaniards came over here, I don't think that a possible insistence on eating paella (sp?) would signial a lack of integration or show social conflict.
There are British enclaves in Spain - that is my experience of living in Gibraltar anyway. However the English and Spanish intergrate more readily than some cultures do with others. I don't think that the Brits are campaigning or requesting changes in anyway though be it changes to piggy banks or school uniforms, they don't appear to be pushing an agenda of social change. They are also more welcomed as they are bringing lots of money into a country which relies on tourism heavily to survive.
Yes, that's my experience too. The British, understandably perhaps, stick together, and the "British" parts of Spain, or any other country, are noticably different from the native parts of those countries. More drunks for a start
So you approve of this? Aren't such spectres merely native Brits 'enriching' Spain?
Although women in some Muslim countries wear veils (a cloth that covers the face from about the bridge of the nose down as well as a shawl or other means of covering their hair) and others wear the extreme head to foot coverings like burkhas it is far from settled that the Koran itself requires women to preserve their modesty, per se. The Koran is more about respecting God through changes in physical behavior as the means to prove ones faith.
The hijab which is what generally is assumed to be what Mohammed may be said to require of women only was meant to cover a woman's hair. This resonates very similarly with orthodox jewish practice for women who also are required to not show their own hair in public. Among many orthodox jewish communities, this rule is observed by women wearing wigs when in public. The reason why I mention orthodox judaism is because much of what has become Muslim societal rule and custom springs from judaism out of which Islam honors its major prophets and teachings (also, i.e.: kosher and halal are very similar). Likewise, orthodox jewish men are not to go about with uncovered head so that they at least must wear a yarmulke.
Speaking of Saudi and its particularly restrictive view on women, there is a Saudi movie coming out, the first of its kind, Keif al Hal which underscores, I think, the fact that there are at least some in Saudi who find that Western criticism of the Saudi system of disenfranchised women to be valid.
Enriching it monetarily certainly. Adding to their culture ...... debatable.
However Spain encourages tourism to those areas and needs it as well, plus the enclaves are small, a very different kettle of fish to what is happening here.
I completely understand why people act in this tribal fashion, I simply do not believe that it adds anything to society culturally, indeed I believe it simply creates division and tension and suspicion. Over generations these disappear but certainly for the first 5 or 6 generations there will be problems.
I don't approve of the negative influences that Brits have in various foreign places. I don't think even the most patriotic Brit can be very proud of our behaviour abroad - which is often reported so not purely anecdotal.
There is no guaruntee that such problems disappear over generations - the main problem that we are facing is that we have allowed foreign dialogue into our country. People are stupid, and fickle - but ideas can move the masses for Good or Ill and ideas DO NOT die.
I am tired of a lack of confidence in our own dialogue (although this is changing due to lots of things) and the mindless certainty of other disalogues.
As far as 'tribalism' is concerned, I think the only reason we are seeing it is because we have showed a lack of self-worth as a nation, so welcomed people who had obvious distaste for us and no reason to be here other than the promise of financial greed. When they saw that we lack pride to such an extent that we wouldn't criticise aspects of their behaviour that was borne of hate/inequality or just a lack of discipline - they lost respect for us. Our lack of confidence (despite being in a position whereby we should be proud and confident) required them to take the mickey out of us...
Four Judges Shot in Turkey Over Anti-Veil Decision
Aslan Alpaslan, 29, walked in on a group of judges and opened fire while shouting "Allahu Akbar (Alla is Greater) and "I am the soldier of Alla". Security had allowed him in earlier with minimum search because they identified him as a lawyer.
One of the judges, Judge Mustafa Birden, had passed a ban earlier preventing teachers from wearing head-scarves (veils) even on their way to school. His picture and his colleagues' were pinned on Islamic web sites and had received death threats.
Judge Mustafa Birden is in critical condition after being shot in the stomach. Judge Mustafa Yucel Ozbilgin died despite six hours of surgery to remove a bullet from his brain. Two other judges and a fifth person were also injured.
My best friend just came back from visiting his dad whole moved to spain. It is a totally English enclave and noone makes any effort to learn the language, all the restuarants just serve cooked English breakfasts and very little if any local cuisine. The funny thing is they all complain about immigrants have ruined Britain and a lot site that reason for why they left!
So I think there is a definate lack of integration, but it's the same anywhere in the world. Even when you see certain people on holiday, they make no effort to absorb foreign culture. I think it's just part of base human nature to not want to change what is familiar.
Who are you to say that what they uphold is wrong and what the UK does (I assume thats what you mean by WE) is right? Lets list some flaws that arent so great shall we? I am sure you know them.
Doesnt Saudi have some of the lowest crime rate as well, oh I guess thats wrong as well?
Its not our country, its not the US country its their own country. I am sure if Saudis were laughing at the UK and started saying how "we" want to change the UK, it would offend us a bit...no?
Brits in Spain are there to spend spend spend and not take take take.
I guess it depends how much you actually like the culture of the country you live in. I prefer the very relaxed atmosphere surrounding food and drink that you get in "real" france, spain, italy etc. over the attitude towards food and drink in the british parts of those countries, but then I'm a serious foodie, so I guess I'm not "normal" in that respect.
One of the reasons for that is because a lot of behaviours that are illegal over here aren't illegal over there...
I'd hope that if they knew a better way of doing things, or saw something in our behaviour that was comparatively backwards and stupid then they would be kind enough to point it out...
Last time we had had this argument, we came up with facts that immigrants pay more in taxes than they take in benefits. Most people then shifted to a "I don't care about the money, it's the principle of immigration" stance. So I don't think it's different at all.
1) The idea of immigrants putting in more than they take out does not take the transport, social and council strain of the extra immigrants... until it takes into account the money spent through social services out of native pockets onto immigrants, through the police and through the NHS we cannot know whether we have profit or loss...
2) 'people' didn't 'shift' from financial to the social aspects - I expressed that FOR ME, it wasn't about money and I would rather pay lots and have lots of decent immigrants than some of the swine that are currently allowed in who we apparently 'profit' off of (although personally, this 'profit' has never made its way into my pocket)...
I thought Saudi laws were much stricter than ours actually.
The figures I posted did take into account those costs, i.e. NHS, police etc.
My thoughts exactly....
You can't really say whether its better or not, what works for one country doesnt work for another. There are flaws in the UK, just as with other countries and saying backward and stupid isnt right.
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