1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The trans women athlete dispute

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Entai, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 16,407

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    Well done sir! You have soundly defeated the man of straw you have built to do battle with! You are obviously a most able combatant.
     
  2. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 16,407

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    Is she? What evidence do you have?

    It's certainly plausible - steroid use is far from unknown amongst strength-based athletes - but where's the evidence? She used to compete. Is there testing for steroid use in strength competitions? How effective is testing for steroid use anyway? I don't know.

    It's also plausible that she's an anomaly, an outlier far from the average, who applied a lot of knowledge and time and training to take it as far as possible. All high level athletes are anomalies to at least some extent, e.g. hardly anyone could swim as fast as Michael Phelps at his prime regardless of how much training they did.
     
  3. Roar87

    Soldato

    Joined: May 10, 2012

    Posts: 5,619

    Location: Leeds

    I mean you used her as an example so maybe you should know about what in competition testing takes place for power lifting. I took 1 look at a picture of her and then looked at her lifting records and I could bet my house and the lives of every person I hold dear to me that she's used steroids for many years. I'm not even taking anything away from her achievements either. To use her as an example of what women can do is laughable though and shows you know absolute nothing about this subject.
     
  4. morbid42

    Gangster

    Joined: Mar 24, 2011

    Posts: 295

    Location: Sherwood Forest

    Change would cause too many historic issues, with the likes of Fatima Whitbred etc
     
  5. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 16,407

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    So you have no evidence. If I respected your opinion I might be bothered by you using insults instead of the evidence you don't have. Fortunately, I don't.

    You're also fighting straw, since I didn't use her as an example of what women can do.
     
  6. edscdk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 17, 2008

    Posts: 6,686

    If the fight was refused there would be a media/social media storm knocking the extreme transfobia of the real femal fighter so I think it would be hard to refuse.
     
  7. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,110

    Not to mention if someone is entering a tournament, fighting for. belt, competing in the olympics etc... in some martial art then the "choice" to not fight someone trans or intersexual (with some male advantages) could mean they can't effectively compete.
     
  8. Roar87

    Soldato

    Joined: May 10, 2012

    Posts: 5,619

    Location: Leeds

    The Rock is on steroids, this is basically a matter of fact, I don't have proof of this in the same way I don't have proof of what drugs/medication any stranger is taking. How ever, if The Rock was able to lift the weight she is lifting, it would be considered incredibly impressive, but he can't. And he's a 6"4, 19 stone professional wrestling/actor who's probably been lifting weights since he was about 13. You suggesting I need proof to say that a 200lb woman is on steroids when bench pressing 600lbs is outrageous. The most genetically gifted man who ever lived couldn't do that naturally, steroids are a prerequisite for those kind of lifts.
     
  9. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    Nay again, for, as you may have observed, my sarcastic duality of response was met with the anticipated spanking of desputedly indisputable truth, backed up as always by unsubstantiated opinion, so once more the simple acts of expressing a perspective and even acquiescing to the insisted corrections is not enough for those who think they know better....

    Well I guess in that case women are ******. They get the living **** kicked out of them by blokes in dresses and the world gets to live in happy, tolerant, trans-non-binary-gender-neutral utopia.... That is what the lefty liberals wanted, right?
     
  10. Roar87

    Soldato

    Joined: May 10, 2012

    Posts: 5,619

    Location: Leeds

    I think we have to be honest here, most of the people saying that it's okay for trans men to fight natural women know absolutely nothing about fighting or physical training in general, most of them have never set foot in a gym in any serious fashion, they probably think combat sports are barbaric and enjoy the fact that female combat athletes are being made obsolete because they want the entire subsection of combat sport to be made obsolete. These are the overweight male Feminists who live alone with a cat, the closest they come to masculinity is the crap beard it took them 2 years to grow.
     
  11. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    OK, let's be all open and honest - Starting from 1989, I spent around 15 years studying Boxing, Kung Fu, Judo and Iaido, with brief forays into Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Tai Chi. Some time around 1997 I began dropping all but the boxing, and switched to learning Western forms with barefist and historical weapons.

    I admit I've never felt the need to visit a gym, but while combat sports can be pretty barbaric, I do rather enjoy that aspect and, having trained with a good many women, would not dream of denying any of them the opportunity to compete if they want and in whatever way they want.
    I have been overweight in more recent times and, while I don't like to consider myself a feminist as such, I do like to support women if I can. I'm married, have dogs not cats, and my beard is slowly going a rather nice shade of silvery-white.

    Does any of that matter, though? I expect not...
     
  12. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    Well I asserted that testosterone provides no advantage to those who are insensitive to it and you assured me that I and my cited sources were all wrong, and that you were right because "it comes down to testosterone" as per your assumption that testosterone confers a "male advantage", even in people who are insensitive to it.

    Oh, wait, no, you used the word 'partial'. Let's take a moment to make a big ******* deal out of that, shall we? Partial.... PARTIAL.... PARTIAL!!!!!!!

    Meanwhile, an individual with ANY degree of AIS, of ANY kind is still far less sensitive to testosterone than even a normal woman let alone a man, so NO amount testosterone would confer any advantage, regardless of whether they have PARTIAL, Mild or Complete AIS.... I'm sure you'll ignore this very fundamental fact yet again, but that is the crux of the matter, regardless of whatever other flawed assumptions you care to bring up...
    Additionally, numerous normal female bodybuilders without the aid of steroids have exhibited muscle mass increase ratios of up to 85% that of male bodybuilders, despite having only 10% the levels of testosterone, so again it confers no advantage. Furthermore, those who did take steroids showed no marked increase over their unaided subjects. So once more testosterone is of no advantage.

    https://mennohenselmans.com/natural-muscular-potential-women/
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cen.12445

    So your assertions about "XY intersex individuals with male advantages" who are unable to make even normal female level usage of testosterone, are clearly unfounded and irrelevant, since such people cannot exist, and thus all your ******** witterings about micropenises are similarly based on flawed assumptions. You might as well argue that someone with Partial blindness can somehow see with greater advantage than someone with 20-20 vision....!

    But then, from the outset, your contest to my primary assertion was that you felt my argument "seemed" to be based on social gender, despite me telling you numerous times that it was not my argument at all, yet you continually ignored that while adopting the very same stance in counter... so who gives a **** what claims were made? You're clearly not interested in addressing any of that, you just want to have a go and prove something - I don't mind derailing threads and getting banned while you act like a ****, so over to you.....
     
  13. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,110

    XY intersex atheletes with male advantages can’t exist?

    Have you not heard of Semenya?

    Strange how testosterone limits have been applied and performance dropped despite your assertion that it doesn’t make any difference, why do you suppose that is?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  14. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    Not as you've described "male advantage", no.

    Do you want the sarcastic answer, the abusive answer, or just a referral back to earlier in the thread?
    Either way, I've already contested your assertions around all that, as have others both here and in scientific studies.

    https://sportsscientists.com/2019/0...performance-the-cas-ruling-on-caster-semenya/

    Strange how athletes with the highest testosterone levels are often not the winners or even highest performers, either, though. Why do you suppose that is?

    Strange how the articles already linked and the references cited within speak of other hormones (IGF1, for example) that play just as much of a role (and in many cases much bigger roles) in the athletic performance of women, and Semenya being forced to take "hormone-suppressing medication" sees a reduction in performance as a result... Why do you suppose that reducing hormones cited as governing female performance would result in a female athlete's performance dropping?
    Additionally and even more strangely, Semenya is quoted as saying the drugs "made me feel constantly sick and unable to focus". Why do you suppose her performance would suffer from that?

    I mean, you as always know best, so I'm sure you can confirm (with substantiating citation) exactly which drugs she was on, so I can verify for myself which hormones they do and do not suppress.....?

    Interestingly, this did also crop up: https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle...ne-treatment-south-african-athlete-dsd-502729
    Good reading...
     
  15. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,110

    Try to deal with what was actually claimed - you popped back into this thread to deliver a straw man argument. Now you're seemingly unaware that Semenya and others like her have had testosterone limits imposed... these were imposed previously too and unsurprisingly her performance dropped off.

    You can go off on a tangent if you like - I didn't make any claims re: the highest testosterone levels necessarily being the winners... you don't seem to have an explanation for Semenya though.

    Your implication that it was simply because she felt a bit unwell as a result of the drugs is rather silly. There is a pretty obvious reason why intersex athletes were overrepresented in the 800m final at that Olympic Games....
     
  16. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,095

    Semenya is a man with some partial female physical features. But ofc it's now un-PC for them to say it like it is.
     
  17. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,110

    Seemingly some people are trying to deny that she's got an inherent advantage, it is quite bizarre.
     
  18. spoffle

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 4, 2012

    Posts: 16,337

    You only need to use your eyes to determine that Becca Swanson is blatantly juicing. You're being disingenuous by acting the way you are.
     
  19. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    Well since those people are scientists with studies to substantiate their assertions, presumably you have something that proves otherwise?

    No?
    Didn't think so.....
     
  20. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,095

    It doesn't change that "she" looks and is built just like a man. Any guy who looks at "her" instinctively sees another male.

    Like these mental trans women who try to convince lesbians and straight men that they are women. It's not going to work in quite literally a million years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019