1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The trans women athlete dispute

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Entai, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 42,943

    They already have - there was a big court case remember and the restrictions were applied again. You're really unaware that intersex athletes like Semenya had a huge advantage over women?
     
  2. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 16,382

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    I like evidence. Opinion carries some weight if it comes from a suitably qualified person, but it's not proof. I never said she hasn't used steroids. In fact, I said it was plausible. You may regard it as "disingenuous" to not accept an accusation without proof, but I don't.

    Also, it's worth noting that whether or not she's using steroids is irrelevant to the point I was making. Someone stated, point blank, that it was impossible for any woman to have as much upper body musculature as a person in a photo. Becca Swanson is a woman and she has far more upper body musculature than the person in the photo. Thus disproving the statement. I'm also pretty sure that there are women who definitely don't use steroids who have as much upper body musculature as the person in that photo. Not many, but some. Even one would be enough to disprove the statement made.

    So...are you stating, clearly and definitively, that no woman on Earth, at all, not a single one could possibly ever have as much upper body musculature as the person in that photo in any circumstances? Or without using steroids?
     
  3. spoffle

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 4, 2012

    Posts: 16,313

    Without using steroids is the important part. She absolutely is using steroids, female physics have a limit that she is far far beyond. She's in fact beyond the physique most men would be able to achieve without steroids at least in terms of over all muscle mass ratio.
     
  4. fez

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 22, 2008

    Posts: 12,874

    Location: Sidcup

    Shes either juicing or has a very out of whack testosterone production naturally.
     
  5. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 16,382

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    The relevant photo is in post 161. And no, it's not a photo of Becca Swanson. She just came to my mind as an extreme example of musculature on a woman.

    The statement I was replying to was:

    ""Her" upper body muscles are just so far beyond what a real women can achieve."

    Are you stating, clearly and definitively, that no woman on Earth, at all, not a single one could possibly ever have as much upper body musculature as the person in that photo in any circumstances?

    That's the point. Forget Becca Swanson. Although she does disprove the statement made, she's now functioning in this thread as a diversion and a muddying of the distinction between opinion and evidence. What is your position on the original statement, as quoted above? Do you think that no woman could ever possibly get anywhere near the amount of upper body musculature as the person in the photo in post 161? Do you think that every woman who does so must be using steroids? Do you think that if a woman uses steroids she ceases to be a woman?
     
  6. spoffle

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 4, 2012

    Posts: 16,313

    The photo in post 161 is sketchy really. There are androgen receptors in the delts and neck/upper back muscles that testosterone binds to. Which in simple terms means that a woman with strong development there usually has had some sort of hormonal "help." Especially given that the effects of testosterone can be life long with regards to specific areas of the body.

    Compared to the woman that's being punched, there is a big and very noticeable difference in the areas with a high concentration of androgen receptors. I'm not saying it's impossible, just it is sketchy and unusual.
     
  7. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,040

    Sketchy because its not really a woman.
     
  8. Roar87

    Soldato

    Joined: May 10, 2012

    Posts: 5,602

    Location: Leeds

    Yes no woman on Earth who has ever lived could even come close to her musculature naturally in any circumstances, I'd personally be surprised if you could get a woman who's half as strong, most men won't be half as strong after training for 5+ years. She's bench pressing 600lbs, there's probably no woman who has ever lived who could bench press 350lbs naturally. The worlds strongest man Eddie Hall has a bench press listed at 660lbs, he weighs in excess of 27 stone and uses a lot of steroids, Becca is a female. Comparatively it's like you're arguing that a rocket can go to the moon without any fuel, that's how stupid what you're saying is.
     
  9. Angilion

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 5, 2003

    Posts: 16,382

    Location: Just to the left of my PC

    I think you should get someone to read posts to you more carefully before you respond with silly insults to something that isn't in the post you're replying to or even in any other post.

    In your rush to assert dominance by insulting me, you're making yourself look bad.
     
  10. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,927

    Yes, the IAAF case was thrown out by the CAS, on the basis of no evidence. The IAAF then funded a study and came back, upon which the CAS ruled in their favour.

    You and I both know all about this, since we discussed this last time - Specifically the one study that the IAAF themselves funded... and the several different scientists, each with their own studies, who are calling BS on the questionably sourced IAAF study presumably in lieu of credible peer review.

    So again, one study seemingly designed to support a specific ruling, with challenges from several different directions, and others who are still undertaking more in-depth long-term studies of their own.... But as always, you know all this. I'm happy to get banned reminding you again.
     
  11. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 42,943

    So on basis are you making the straw man argument you put forth earlier?
     
  12. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,927

    Nope.
     
  13. regulus

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 18, 2006

    Posts: 9,683

    Location: Wellington, NZ

    Yes. In no circumstances EVER, could a female achieve that type of upper body muscle mass without the use of steroids. IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES