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The trans women athlete dispute

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Entai, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Thecaferacer

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

    Posts: 715

    I think the issue with that is without some kind of compulsion to prove your sex it allows those who are surgically altered to claim to be female, despite the fact they may infact been born a male. Where there is significant doubt about an athlete's sex then there should be provisions for sensitive enquiries to be made. What I disagree with completely is the compulsion for an athlete to take testosterone altering drugs. Either they can compete or they can't.
     
  2. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,849

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  3. Thecaferacer

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

    Posts: 715

    The problem with the confidentiality point is that people like Castor Semenya physically looks identical to a male minus the meat and two veg, the athletics community and the media already were asking questions. This has been exasperated by the refusal to release the full results of her medical tests which left lots of people guessing she is biologically male.

    In terms of the surgery, yes easy to prove, but you would still need to consent to a medial exmaination and I wouldn't put any faith in adequate records existing if conducted in more less salubrious parts of the world.
     
  4. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,725

    I noticed Sharron Davies as made a tweet;

    "If you put 2 biological females on an island humanity dies out (but they'd talk loads). If you put a biological male and a trans woman on an island humanity dies out. But if you put a male and female there might stand a chance! Providing they can fish of course. Binary Sex matters"

    https://talkradio.co.uk/news/olympian-sharron-davies-branded-transphobic-gender-tweet-19070231502

    Apparently her tweet is considered transphobic.

    As I read stuff like this it reminds me of a quote from a speech "Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad." This is madness. To even make a statement like that is somehow insulting other people.

    Trans people need to accept themselves for what they are. Nobody would have a problem with that. I've spoke regular to 2 trans people, and 1 intersex person. They are all good people. I feel bad because some of the supposed supporters are actually being passive aggressive insulting to them i.e. if they don't say they are real women then they are 'just trans people', as though they are lesser people or something. Everyone should just be who they are, and be proud of it.
     
  5. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 13,744

    Haha, had to be Owen Jones that replies.
     
  6. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,849

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  7. Thecaferacer

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

    Posts: 715

    I wouldn't argue with universal testing, although it's a shame it's got to that point. The trial by Twitter is a problem, but ultimately it stems from a grain of truth. If Semenya was 100% female then the issue would be put to bed with a few bigots making crude comments.
     
  8. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,849

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  9. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 13,744

    But those people are very few.
     
  10. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 42,535

    But it is again not clear what you mean by this "as they were born" POV. To be more detailed some intersex people have what might be a large clit or small penis that didn't develop properly... but might still have a hole, they might have what look like labia that were actually due to be their ball sack... Maybe undescended testes drop later in life. How do you even know if someone performed a small bit of surgery on their private area after birth? You're now seemingly placing some importance on "what would the 'average, reasonable person' regard them as". As already pointed out they're born as an XY person with sensitivity to T. What you seem to be referring to is the gender they've been raised as socially which can just as easily apply to trans people these days - ever seen the liberal parents who don't even define a regular kid's gender until later in life?

    I think if it was explained that someone was born XY and they're essentially still (biologically) male aside from the fact their balls didn't drop and their penis didn't develop properly then the "average person" would tend to agree that they're biologically mostly male it is unfair for them to run alongside females.

    The first part is still partly based on culture, current practice and presumably the wishes of the parents... if they're clearly intersex and a choice has to be made it isn't for a medical professional to state "I demand you raise your intersex child in this way"... they're intersex.

    I don't see why that man on a bus thing is an important criteria in trying to determine what is fair in athletics, though I think the man on the Clapham omnibus would, even without explanation and simply based on appearances, be inclined to say that, for example, Semenya is a man:

    [​IMG]


    You've not answered though - do you believe that we should have separate male and female events in athletics? Being male is a natural physical advantage, that natural physical advantage is predetermined and governed by DNA!

    That is the advantage being talked about here, you're now throwing in some silly example again that you've already done before re: some person that happens to be tall etc... something that isn't segregated in any sports AFAIK. Things that are segregated for in sport include male/female, age, weight (the latter in the case of some martial arts) and disability.

    Do you disagree with drugs testing, testing for high testosterone etc..? I mean that is the obvious way that this gets flagged - high testosterone. But we shouldn't test for high T now because "Gattaca"?

    You're basically objecting to actually enforcing the rules???? I mean if someone claims to be blind in the paralympics but there is suspicion that they're actually not as blind as they claim then this shouldn't be checked.... because "Gattaca"?

    This "because Gattaca" argument seems rather ambiguous, you're objecting to testing? Or you're objecting to some testing but not other testing... but you've not defined (or perhaps not actually decided yet) what testing you're objecting to? Presumably you can now arbitrarily declare what sort of tests (if any) you're fine with in the next post? Or perhaps you can go with an silly argument of "would the man on the bus think they'd taken steroids"?

    (I've put a more comprehensive reply in there, despite you ignoring some of the previous points and throwing in another variant on the same flawed point not one else has raised re: "what about someone with long arms legs", any chance you can avoid the temptation to start splitting the above down into multiple one line quotes?)
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  11. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 42,535

    Yep, indeed, not all countries have an NHS or continuous records of every persons medical history, plenty of countries have patchy coverage from private hospitals, clinics... Someone gets born in some African village with an intersex condition, you're not necessarily going to have any record that a local doctor performed a minor procedure to say reduce a large clit or micro penis.

    I think the other poster is objecting to any form of gender testing etc..

    It isn't really necessary to gender test everyone (depending on the regulations) - someone who is XY with high T will be picked up by the standard anti doping regime all athletes undergo anyway and visually they're often rather obvious to spot if they're sensitive to T.

    It isn't a guess any more with Semenya anyway, her own athletics association pretty much outed her anyway ditto to the leaks and ditto to the recent change in legislation and the fact she appealed it. She's basically someone that would otherwise have been born a male and is sensitive to T but didn't properly develop a penis.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  12. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,849

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  13. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 42,535

    Oh great... loads of multi quotes full of unnecessary tangents... I'll deal with the first three:

    Because it isn't clear, I've explained the aspect that isn't clear already - the foundation for your POV seems to be: "Intersex, I would argue, is again just the way you were born". Yes people are born intersex? Why does that then imply they should therefore be allowed to compete in one of the binary categories over the other when they were arguably born as neither?

    Your argument seems to actually rest on the rather more arbitrary issue of their social gender, that is something they share with trans athletes which you take a different approach to.

    What about intersex people with wombs?
    What is the obsession with genetic testing?

    The issue here is intersex people with male advantages... for example XY people with sensitivity to T. (i.e. in crude terms, intersex people who were essentially due to be male but had an issue with their penis developing/balls dropping and also have sensitivity towards the well above female levels of testosterone they produce naturally)

    If these other intersex athletes don't have high T/male advantages in the first place, or are basically female, wombs and all, but with some chromosome issue then why would anyone be bothered about them? You're again just throwing in more stuff no one has objected to in the first place.

    So this is back to social gender... a passable trans person could be assumed to be female by the "average person". A butch looking female athlete could be assumed to be a secret man by an average person. Why on earth should that carry any weight here?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  14. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,849

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  15. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,725

    I think the intersex people are a different issue to the trans people.

    I wouldnt have a problem with intersex people who are naturally born and have aspects of both genders. We know intersex people have been around for a long time. They were once called hermaphrodites, which comes from the Greek mythology Hermaphroditus.

    Those people are natural, and I would give them a pass to compete in both male and female sports. Yes they might break many records, but arent they just like a woman born whos happens to have long legs. We wouldnt disqualify her for being born with a long legged advantage.
     
  16. i-bert

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 18, 2003

    Posts: 3,181

    Might as well have women and men competing against each other then, as they're all "natural".
     
  17. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,725

    Biologically natural. An intersex person would fulfil the criteria of being a woman.
     
  18. 413x

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 13, 2010

    Posts: 16,339

    Location: Cardiff

    Sport will likely change beyond recognition soon.

    As tt said , massive demographics of people already cannot compete in X sport as the don't have the genetic advantage

    As technology and genetics progress this line will blur more.

    Like in f1, you'll never get into it is you're poor.
    You'll never do basket ball if you're tiny.
    Trans is even worse really, you've chosen (I know ) to have that advantage. Sometimes you just can't have it all. Life isn't fair.
     
  19. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 42,535

    I'm not assuming I'm replying to what you've said, you've said it isn't about social gender but then you've made points that relate to an intersex person's social gender - i..e the gender they've been raised as, that is rather conflicted. You've then decide that trans people have simply made a choice, that is dubious, it might be true in some cases but it isn't clear that it is true in general - there is possibly some genetic or psychological component there or both. Perhaps it is best not to dwell on the trans inconsistency here as it isn't the main subject of the thread.

    You're advocating some verification but have arbitrarily limited this to physical inspection (something that can be rather intrusive) but no lab tests? How do you propose to check for doping if you don't measure testosterone levels in a lab?

    With regards to your physical inspection an XY person with partial AIS has an obvious (male) advantage over XX females, they have no womb and so a physical examination would reveal them. Are you saying therefore that some athlete like Semenya, if revealed to have no womb, essentially someone with male advantages, internal testes etc.. but who didn't develop a penis would therefore in your opinion not then be able to compete as a female?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  20. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 42,535

    Just to clarify - someone who is XY, was otherwise going to be male, is sensitive to testosterone, has internal testes, no womb or ovaries but just an small opening... is physically quite masculine aside from the lack of penis and the balls that are internal and haven't dropped (afaik they do sometimes drop and what might otherwise be large labia turn into ball sacks...) - they fulfil the criteria of being a woman and should compete in the event with XX women even though we segregate male and women events because of the advantages men have (main one being high T) and which the intersex person has?