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The trans women athlete dispute

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Entai, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,105

    I'm not the one begin dishonest here, you literally claimed something and then denied you had and are now waffling about not quoting something in the right order? I pointed out that you made the claim, you denied it and I've quoted back exactly what you claimed - it isn't my problem that you've got this habit of breaking every post down into small sections and posting so much in response that you forget what you've even claimed.

    Because it is in the rules. It is a relevant condition. That isn't nit picking. I've pointed this out a few times now....

    Like I said... round in circles... and funnily enough you are unwilling to provide anything while simultaneously demanding the same from me.
     
  2. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  3. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,105

    This is simple, you made a claim about my argument.

    That is not my argument, that is an attempt at a straw man argument. I've made reference to some intersex conditions, namely those that give male advantages such as partial AIS!

    No, this is false, I don't know why you keep on bringing up this stuff, complete AIS isn't relevant here. I told you this back when you replied to a previous post about partial AIS and completely ignored the word "partial".

    Like I said I think we're going around in circles, you're quite happy to play dumb about testosterone and male advantages I sport, I'm not going to waste time fetching anything there. It is well documented, the evidence was presented at the CAS and frankly it is pretty well known to anyone with any interest in athletics.
     
  4. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  5. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,105

    My argument isn't based on speculative media reporting and no I'm not going to waste time "proving" that having testes, high testosterone and the ability to utilise testosterone confers an advantage in sport. Especially given the both amount of waffle I've had in response to making rather simple points and your unwillingness to do the same yourself.

    Why do you think we maintain male/female separation in sport?
    Why do you think men tend to perform better than women in almost every sport?
    Why do you think Semenya's performance dropped when she suppressed testosterone levels?

    As for this

    I've refuted it several times - it isn't my argument, if you think it is then please do quote the post where I've made that argument.
     
  6. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  7. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,105

    My pov on this has nothing to do with media speculation - if you believe otherwise then please do cite what you're referring to?

    And yes I have refuted that what you've claimed to be my POV as quoted a couple of times now, isn't! If you believe otherwise then please quote where I've made that claim... rather tellingly you can't do so.

    I don't know why you're insisting on carrying on with this straw man argument but like I've said already it is going around in circles. I think we both know the main reason why men generally out perform women in sport, it isn't a secret... it comes down to testosterone. you can try all the mental gymnastics you like, break down my posts into as many small pieces as possible and insert waffle, straw man arguments, questions that have already been answered etc.. but it doesn't change that reality.
     
  8. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  9. edscdk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 17, 2008

    Posts: 6,685

    If trans men can compete equally with women, where are all the trans women athletes competing with men? And why do there seem so few trans women in this debate?

    Or maybe there is?
     
  10. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 15,598

    Location: Lincs

    Well that's quite easy to answer, it's basic physiology.

    Which is generally an advantage in most sports
     
  11. Entai

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Feb 28, 2004

    Posts: 72,153


    Nobody knows that for certain.

    It is assumed, by media and general public, but nowhere at any time has it been scientifically proven beyond all doubt, that testosterone gives any advantages.

    There is no research that has directly and consistently found transgender men to have an athletic advantage in sport, purely due to any extra testosterone in their bodies.

    There is a wide held unsubstantiated belief that testosterone leads to an athletic advantage in transgender people, particularly individuals who were assigned male at birth but identify as female.

    Which is why Loughborough University are embarking on a long (5 years or so) study under the heading, "Transgender people in sport. Is the perceived athletic advantage real ?"
     
  12. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,105

    Yes it does, your assertion in this case is about my POV. It is literally my POV, I can tell you right now what my POV is and refute what you claim it is... the fact you can't actually quote anything to back up what you're instead claiming is my POV ought to be rather telling.

    The key difference is, as I've pointed out multiple times, intersex people with male advantages. That isn't all XY people or all non-XX people for that matter, it is some XY people, to claim otherwise is a clear straw man - if you're going to insist otherwise then back it up and quote where I've referred to all XY people or all non-XX people as having advantages. I've refuted it, I've clarified my POV multiple times and you have nothing to back up your claim there.

    It depends on the XY person's condition - I'm referring to XY intersex people with male advantages, that isn't all XY intersex people.

    I don't think you're arguing from a position of good faith here, especially when you're coming out with stuff like this:

    That about sums it up, even a small one paragraph post you'll find a way to quote line by line and write a paragraph in response, often going off on a tangent or arguing against something I didn't claim in the first place. If I did the same to your responses then each post in turn would expand exponentially and the thread would be even more unreadable than it already is. But perhaps you like this style so I've tried to add some further clarity/reiterate my position in this slightly larger post.

    As there isn't even any agreement yet over what I've quite clearly stated is my POV I don't see the merit in spending time linking to say the evidence used in the recent CAS case etc.. especially when you can go and look it up yourself. (I'm not, btw.. saying the court case is the be all and end all on this matter but the IAAF did present what you're after).

    I'd rather get my POV clarified first before furthering the discussion, I'm also rather skeptical about your position now that you seemingly don't believe that people that produce higher levels of testosterone thanks to having testes and that are sensitive have an advantage in sporting events. And the fact you'd not even clarify your POV is just unhelpful too. You originally started off not wanting to test those people, letting them compete as they are, which one might assume meant you were aware of their advantages but were happy for them to compete, now it seems


    You'd think... but for some reason this poster has started in the thread seemingly acknowledging the advantage and making a long limb comparison to it and now has instead switched to demanding evidence for the advantage existing:

    ^^^ the above comment made earlier in the thread in reference to intersex people competing... but now you're demanding I go away and come back with evidence this advantage exists (even after I've highlighted that you can go and look up the CAS case yourself).

    You're not having a discussion in good faith at all here.
     
  13. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  14. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,105

    You're talking about my POV, the only evidence required to show that my POV is what I claim it is rather than what you claim it is is my own posts. This is perhaps one issue with the multi quotes, you're now conflating a discussion about what my POV actually is with some requirement for evidence to back up some aspects of what is being talked about in the POV.

    You claimed this:

    That is wrong, that isn't my POV I can refute that by simply re-iterating what my POV is and asking you to go back and read the posts I've made.

    You made the claim there, if you're going to insist on carrying on with it then back it up with a quote or explain it. If the discussion can't even move past you accepting what my own POV is then there isn't much point adding more to it.
     
  15. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  16. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,105

    Whether you want to call it a POV or argument I don’t really mind, the claim you made is incorrect. Please either back up your claim or justify it.

    Like I said already, there isn’t much point in going further if we’re not even on the same page re: what my argument/POV actually is in the first place.

    If you need some clarification about what I’m referring to then please do ask.
     
  17. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  18. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,105

    Well I've already stated it plenty of times in this thread but for the purpose of clarification my argument/POV relates to some intersex people with male advantages* (this relates to testosterone) and that they should at the very least be suppressing that testosterone if not competing in a third classification or with males.

    This claim is incorrect:

    So are you able to understand/acknowledge that I'm not referring to "anyone not purely XX" but rather just some intersex people who aren't XX and have certain conditions?


    *for example people with partial AIS or 5 alpha reductase
     
  19. XeNoN89

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Mar 6, 2007

    Posts: 7,821

    Location: SW19

    The kind of people that think testosterone does not give a massive advantage are the same kind of people who believe that vaccines will give you autism. They are delusional and it's not worth wasting your time debating the issue with thwn.
     
  20. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 8,947

    NVM
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019