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The Trump presidency

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by datalol-jack, Nov 21, 2016.

  1. hornetstinger

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 4,318

    Free speech you say? Your support Trumps right to hate speech.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10BF-eee_Z0

    Then you fully support what President Mahmoud is saying.
    And Kim too

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbL1dtdTcLs
     
  2. Cern

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 2,084

    Location: London

    There lots of situations in life where a thought pops into your head but you decide to self-censor and not say it, for all manner of reasons - politeness, diplomacy, self-preservation, manners, dignity, to avoid causing hurt and yes, sometimes, 'political correctness'. Most children learn when to filter some of the more impulsive stuff that pops into their head. So why can't the President of the USA?

    Trump doesn't have a filter and a lot of his supporters don't feel they need to have one either. So it sets a pretty nasty precedent. Freedom of speech doesn't necessarily mean its OK to say any old insulting shi*t that comes into your head just because you can.

    I do agree that the opposite end of the pendulum swing isn't good either and people shouldn't leap onto someone else for the slightest slip or inappropriate word. There's a lot of faux outrage and it's tiring.

    There's a balance to be had, dignity and decorum to be sought and lines that shouldn't be crossed. Trump fails on all counts.
     
  3. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 27,312

    Location: Canada

    You’d be surprised. A lot of people visit those “holes” and have a really nice time. Just because a country is poor doesn’t mean it’s a bad place to go.

    Perhaps you should go visit some of those places and you’ll realise.
     
  4. Rroff

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 52,087

    I've come to the conclusion he doesn't just have no filter - he basically has a Teleprompter in his head with a bunch of random "catchy" phrases unrelated to his actual circumstances and he just picks whichever seems closest to a given moment.
     
  5. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 18,523

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

  6. awaybreaktoday

    Suspended

    Joined: May 15, 2006

    Posts: 3,480

    Location: London

    Well prince Harry and prince William love going to these holes... Why has our PM stayed so quiet, is she preparing to sell the soul of of country to Trump?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 2:55 AM
  7. Rifte

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 17, 2010

    Posts: 1,977

    Location: Somewhere in Asia

    Trump's view on selection immigration and only allowing those with the 'right' profile into the US on the basis that they positively impact the job market and the economy is completely valid.

    The harsh reality is that a large proportion of people in these 'hole' countries are not able to fit that profile due to a number of unfortunate reasons. Their wish to move to the US is more of a taking relationship rather than an actual ability to contribute on a needs basis.

    The Australian and Canadian system have this system and it filters out alot of people from these 'hole' countries because they simply cannot satisfy what is required.

    Some of these countries are 'lovely' to go to but tourism and the ability of that country's population to effectively and productively migrate are two separate issues.

    Trump is correct but his alleged statement is unbelievably non PR hence the 'offence'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 6:45 AM
  8. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 27,312

    Location: Canada

    TBH I wasn’t particularly talking about tourism in the sense of sightseeing and beaches, rather the attitude of people from said “holes”. The vast majority there are honest, kind and hard working. The only real barrier they have is money and education.

    The green card lottery only accounts for ~5% of legal immigration each year, so it’s not as if it’s a particularly major source of immigration into the US. Realistically both sides benefit, the low skilled immigrant has the opportunity for a better life, the host country has another person willing to do low skilled work that doesn’t require an education.

    Honestly though, do you really think Trumps tirade was actually to do with the educational attainment and experience of immigrants from those countries? Or do you perhaps think there may be more to it? This is a man after all quite happy to claim Mexican immigrants are all rapists and criminals and who has expressed very clear racist and bigoted viewpoints and policies in the past.

    That’s the issue, it’s just another straw on the camels already heavily laden back. Another bigoted, abrasive poorly reasoned explosion from someone with a long history of similar.
     
  9. Rifte

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 17, 2010

    Posts: 1,977

    Location: Somewhere in Asia

    Do I think that Trump has 'issues'? Yes

    Do I think that his communication skills are poor? Absolutely. There is a massive chasm between his intent and the impact.

    Do I believe that Trump said 'hole' in this meeting despite him claiming otherwise? Yes.....he has been proven to be a liar on numerous occasions

    However the one issue I have is that (unless I am failing to understand the background to this 'meeting') this was a meeting that was held behind closed doors. This wasn't a statement he said at a conference to the public, and I do take issue with someone being judged on everything that he or she says behind what they perceive to be closed doors. If this was the case....honestly speaking most of us would be liable to criticism. Despite Trump being Trump I hold the same feeling with stuff like this.

    In respect to filling the skills market for that respective country I have no idea what the 'gap' is in the US market. Maybe they do need low level labour which these 'hole' countries would be able to backfill, or maybe they don't. Australia is extremely transparent about its skills list and the harsh reality is that unless you have excellent English, degree based education and experience in a role which has a shortage over there.....you aint going on a skills based migration visa. You have to go via other means and most likely very temporarily. Its a very similar story with Canada as well, albeit marginally easier.

    I have been lucky in the lottery if life. Like most of us here I was born into a developed country that is relatively stable. I am able to travel the world easily and without much challenge because I am not perceived to be an immigration risk because of this fact. I have won already.

    In these 'hole' countries many of the people are trapped. I see it in India ALL the time.

    Poor English, a lack of education and a lack of any real financing means that most of the population will never be able to leave India permanently without abusing loopholes or going illegally. Does this make it right? Should the West throw compassion on these 'hole' countries because of their lack of opportunity in life? In my opinion......no. There are other measures that we should look at instead of encouraging mass migration and illegal immigration.

     
  10. Yas786

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 44,338

    Location: In limbo....

    The ambassador to Panama has handed in his resignation citing that he could no longer work under Trump.

    Interesting move from him and will be interesting to see if anyone else does the same.

    I don’t think he was a Trump appointee though, from what I have read he was appointed by Obama. And of course trump supporters with their lack of logic, have attacked him to say good riddance etc etc. All because he was appointed by Obama rather than Trump.
     
  11. hornetstinger

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 4,318

    Well my parents are rabid Trump supporters :-/ pretty much Nazi thing they shrugged it off, the hole thing saying well they are, mexico thing they are etc...
     
  12. garnett

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 1,778

    Man born with silver spoon in his mouth questions worth of those born without.

    Whatever a person's politics, being able to support someone so crass and so utterly lacking in class speaks volumes about a person's character.
     
  13. Rifte

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 17, 2010

    Posts: 1,977

    Location: Somewhere in Asia

    I wonder how this would have been perceived if Trump had not chucked a profanity into his dialogue and mentioned specific countries?

    For example.

    "Why are we having all these people from countries that cannot typically fulfill the needs of our labour market/economy come here?"

    Same intent but sounds a whole lot nicer....
     
  14. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 18,523

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Nobody is encouraging either of these things.

    Idiotic argument based on a straw man and outdated statistics that are now at least 30 years old. Repeatedly debunked in numerous places.

    https://graphpaperdiaries.com/2016/01/21/immigration-poverty-and-gumballs/
    https://www.henrykkowalczyk.com/immigration/roy-beck-the-master-of-deception/
    http://mimesislaw.com/fault-lines/p...resentation-fails-because-the-u-s-≠-u-n/13788
     
  15. Orionaut

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 2, 2012

    Posts: 4,521


    Of course, the most important question is, is the claim sustainable? I have no time for People getting all outraged because Trump has pointed out that the emperor has no clothes if he is actually in fact walking around naked. After all, it is not really possible to work to mitigate a problem until you have recognised that there actually is one.

    Well, Looking at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_region and playing around with the tables, it is clear that, based on intentional homicide rates anyway, most of the larger African countries undoubtedly are ****holes. And of course, That great beacon of light for the liberal left, South Africa, is right up at the top of the list. To counterbalance this however. there are actually a lot of African countries (Mainly the smaller ones) that are not, and indeed, seem to compare favorably with many developed world countries.

    It is also pretty clear that the real ****holes of the World are in the Caribbean and central America. Perhaps that wall isn't such a bad idea after all.

    So, for the most part, Trump isn't really wrong, he has just provoked outrage for breaking the Political rules and daring to mention openly something that everybody knows but nobody is supposed to talk about.

    Take Note


    (Incidentally, if African America was considered as a separate country in its own right, it would be up there in the African top ten, right next to South Africa, but it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, back in the 80's it would have been up near the top in the whole world rubbing shoulders with the very worst of Central America, so despite the relentless criticism, it would seem that the US Police and courts have been doing something right over the last 30 years or so)
     
  16. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 8,684

    Another one who's deluded
     
  17. Faustus

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 3,771

    Providing there's no attempt to incite violence or discrimination then I'm pretty relaxed about free speech. After all it's something past generation's fought to achieve.

    You can't have just 'your version of free speech, this isn't how it works.
     
  18. Jono8

    Caporegime

    Joined: May 20, 2007

    Posts: 25,604

    Location: Surrey

    No, you don't call a whole continent, a continent where many of your own people have links to in their heritage, a ****hole.

    Well, you can if you want, but if you want to say things like that you shouldn't be anywhere near the presidency.

    Free speech doesn't mean you are free from the consequences of what you say as well.....a point many seem to miss.
     
  19. Rifte

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 17, 2010

    Posts: 1,977

    Location: Somewhere in Asia

    I can see three issues with his alleged statement :

    1)Profanity
    2)Specific country 'name calling'
    3)Boxing these countries at its lowest common denominator

    He seems to be deciding which country is a 'hole' based upon what he believes that the population of that nation can contribute to the US economy.

    In a hypothetical situation if he took 100 random people from Norway and 100 random people from Haiti, it would probably work out better with the former for a number of differing reasons.

    Of course skills based migration doesn't work that way its not a one or the other approach, however in Trump's mind it is. He could close off the US borders to a number of differing countries and pick up the slack elsewhere from countries that he does deem worthy.
     
  20. Jono8

    Caporegime

    Joined: May 20, 2007

    Posts: 25,604

    Location: Surrey

    Again missing the point. The outrage is based on him essentially saying anyone from these places he deems a ****hole is not worthy of coming to America. So you could be the nicest, most intelligent Haitian who might be an asset to America, but because Trump thinks your country is a ****hole you are not wanted.

    It is essentially racial profiling.
     


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