The Ups and Downs of high-bar squatting

mrthingyx said:
What are you trying to press the bar for? ;) :D

Seriously - if I were doing it again, I would really, really, really, really encourage you to start as low as you can as you can as when you actually start snatching, dropping under the bar won't be any bother at all.

In addition, if you're trying to do some snatch technique, do it at the top of your workout as the motor control required for it is much finer than squatting/bench/whatever, and having an epic workout first off is only really 'helpful' if you're an elite lifter (i.e. already have flawless tachnique).

Nice to see you putting your crazy Wilkes to decent use, irrespective! You wouldn't use a Ferrari to pull up tree stumps, would you? :D
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I apologise for my appalling phrasing and lack of weightlifting terminology. Because I'm so used to static movement from powerlifting, I was told to think of pressing the bar and drop under it simultaneously - "half press, half legs, big drop with stable catch - boom" were the words I remember being said to me. I'll start recording what I do to prevent my description from butchering what I'm actually doing and to prevent and thought that I'm getting coached by a moron. The only reason it is (was) structured the way it was, was due the fact I only have the coach for this week and the week after and then I'm without until September. So it was more to get the jist of things more than anything. When September comes around however, that is when I'll start doing it properly. But I will definitely make sure I do any technique work first before anything else.
 
19/5/15 - Tuesday

Squats, Deadlifts, front squats.

Squats (low-bar)

Bar x lots
40kg x lots
60kg x 3
80kg x 2x2
100kg x 1
110kg x 1

Super, super easy. I had more in me but that's not necessarily a reason to push hard, especially where I had deadlifts coming up.

Sumo Deadlift

60kg x 5
80kg x 3
100kg x 3
110kg x 3
122.5kg(B,S) x 10

Well that was surprising, I was expecting maybe 6, in fact I counted 6 but the video showed 10. I had to use straps because the palms of my hands are dry for some reason and using a proper powerlifting bar was quite literally tearing more skin off.

Front Squats

Bar x lots
40kg x 5
50kg x 3
60kg x 3x3

The reps got better and better as they went on. I'm tempted to try again at 50kg and go for 5x4 since the weight wasn't the issue, rather I just wasn't used to them.

Happy with that session, nice and light to keep everything in order. Only thing I noticed is that I need to start a tad lower on the sumo deadlifts, but otherwise they were great.
 
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20/5/15 - Wednesday

Squats and bench

Squats

Bar x lots
40kg x some
60kg x 3
80kg x 2
90kg x 2
97.5kg x 6
97.5kg(B) x 6
97.5kg(B) x 8

I hit my target so I'm pleased. I could have done more but the form would have broken down and I don't fancy breaking.

Bench

Bar x lots
40kg x 5
40kg x 8
45kg x 5
55kg x 2x4
62.5kg x 2x3

Slingshot Bench
70kg x 8
70kg x 2x6

All the benching went really well. The normal benching felt quite easy because technique is coming along nicely. I got carried away with the slingshot on the first set because it was my first time using it. Felt brilliant for tricep overloading. I'll be more intelligent with my use for it next time.

Dumbbell flies

6kg x 3x12

Silly light weight so I can get used to stabilisation and help blood flow to the muscle.

Good Mornings

Bar x 12
30kg x 3x12

I tried 40kg but it was too heavy. I'll stick to 30kg for a while.

Back Extensions

5x12

Nice and easy, really focused on simultaneous glute contraction.

Happy with that. I did a more dynamic warmup for squats consisting of overhead squats and a few dynamic stretches that involved the bar, of which I have no idea what they're called. If I can find a video I'll post them. I had absolutely no problems whatsoever by doing the dynamic warmup instead of my standard rolling and mobility stuff, if anything everything worked better.
 
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Mine consisted of overhead squats, ATG squat into half squat stand with a bar on my back (get into a deep squat position and push up and back with the hamstrings and hips until back is almost parallel with the floor and then go back into a squat position), and I also just sat in a squat position with a bar on my back, rocking from side to side and moving around to help open the hips and help flex the ankles. I found this to be just as effective, maybe a bit more, than all the rolling and stretching I usually do. I might stick to this kind of format but still stretch and roll when I'm at home.
 
22/5/15 - Friday

Squats and bench, clicky elbow :(

Squats

Bar x lots
40kg x lots
60kg x 3
80kg x 2
90kg x 2
102.5kg(B) x 2x4
102.5kg(B) x 6

I had more in me but didn't want to push it. The last two sets were brilliant.

Bench

Bar x lots
40kg x some
50kg x 2x4
60kg x 2x1
62.5kg x 9 - Oooh!

Shoulder and elbow were horrid, constantly clicking in the warmups, much better on the last set.

OHP

Bar x lots
27.5kg x 6 - flew up
35kg x 3x5 - nice and easy
30kg x 2x10 -ooft
30kg x 8 - ooft :(

The last set of 30kg hit me hard, really hard. Still quite pleased though.

Dumbbell Bench

15kg x 3x12

Lawd, so much wobbly. At least the weight was easy enough :P

Hammer Curlz

8kg x 10
12.5kg x 3x8

Tricep Pushdowns

~45kg x 3x8

Good Mornings

30kg x 3x12

Back Extensions

5x20

Followed with bajillions attempts at overhead squats. For some reason my grip was narrower than what it was which made it impossible for me to hit depth. By the time I realised, and had widened my grip, I was knackered and still unable to hit depth. Lots to work on!
 
23/5/15 - Saturday

Squats and deadlifts

Squats (Low-bar)

Bar x lots
40kg x lots
60kg x 3
80kg x 3
90kg x 2
100kg(B) x 1
110kg(B) x 1
120kg(B) x 1

Well that's a current low bar pb so I'm quite happy. The weight was relatively easy, it was the unrack that felt the worst.

Deficit Sumo Deadlifts

60kg x 5
75kg x 2x3
90kg x 4x2

Sumo deadlift knee pulls

75kg x 4
90kg x 4
105kg x 5x4

Form is coming along nicely, even when pulling from a deficit. These variations are really helping with getting into correct positioning and making sure that the correct muscles are being engaged at the correct times.

Doesn't look like a lot but legs were ruined I was knackered afterwards.
 
25/5/15 - Monday

Squats and bench. Bench went well, squats could have gone better.

Squats

Bar x lots
40kg x lots
60kg x 3
80kg x 3
92.5kg x 2x8
92.5kg x 10

Knees were clicking a bit, but not much so I'll drop the amount of squats I had planned this week from 5 days to 3.

Bench

Bar x lots
40kg x lots
50kg x some
60kg x 1
65kg x 4x3 - Paused
60kg x 3x6 - Paused

Miles better than last week. Really happy with how this went.

OHP

Bar x lots
27.5kg x 6
32.5kg x 8
30kg x 8
27.5kg x 10

Really, really good! Looks like there has been some progress made!

Incline dumbbell bench press (weight each hand)

15kg x 4x12

Weight was fine, just wibbily wobbly.

Tricep pushdowns

35kg x 5x20

Too easy now.

Time to rest. I'll just deadlift tomorrow and if I'm feeling ok I might front squats, but no daily 1rm tomorrow.
 
26/5/15 - Tuesday

One of the worst sessions I've ever had. No energy and I just hurt.

Deficit Sumo Deadlifts

75kg x 4
90kg x 2x3
97.5kg x 4x2

These felt ok, a tad slow but it's sumo, so it's to be expected.

Sumo Deadlifts

102.5kg x 5
115kg x 3
130kg(B) x 4

The 115kg felt like 130kg and 130kg felt like 150kg. I could have got 6, maybe 7, but my left hip was giving me so much grief and because of me getting distracted my form turned to rubbish, it was possibly the worst form and technique I have ever performed. I was tired, I had barely eaten, I was stressed because of work, hips were hurting and I was just not with it. I know it was just a bad day so I'll put it aside and just move on.

I'm considering switching back to conventional for a good while because of the strain that sumo has put on my hips. Whilst I'm suited for sumo because I'm small, my limb lengths are saying otherwise. I have long legs, short torso and short arms, and because of that, (I think) I have to lower further than my hip anatomy is actually capable of in order to get into a 'proper' sumo position.
 
GSVBagpuss said:
Ah mate, these things happen. As you rightly say, put it behind you, rest, eat and you'll be all good soon.
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It's more the pain in the hips that's the concern atm and it's possible that this has been contributing to the knee clicks and whatnot. However that does not necessarily mean that sumo has been the cause, as it could have also been a technique issue high bar squatting that has caused the hip issue and that has carried over. I might stop sumo for a while to see if things improve because things aren't feeling too brilliant today (better than last night though).
 
27/5/15 - Wednesday

Bench. Just bench. I could have squatted, and into perfect position too, but it wouldn't have ben comfortable and it could have caused damage to my knees from the way they were feeling today. Sumo deadlifts are on hold and I shan't be squatting until Friday, or even Sunday if I feel necessary.

Bench

Bar x lots
40kg x 8
47.5kg x 2x6
55kg x 2x5
60kg x 2x4
65kg x 3x3

Slingshot Bench

72kg x 3

All reps were paused properly and they all flew off the chest. Benching felt really good tonight so hopefully it will stay this way!

Dumbbell Flyes

12kg x 2x12 - Too heavy, definitely not maintainable currently
8kg x 2x12 - ah that's better.

Other than my legs not working, and quite literally struggling to walk, I was pleased with how the benching went. Now to rest for Friday.
 
mrthingyx said:
Doesn't sound pleasant, and sorry to hear it. :(

The issue may well be caused by the "knees out" cue.

I found that as soon as I stopped trying for "knees out" ...I could squat a lot more (and my legs and glutes suddenly became even bigger...
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I'll be dammed if that is the case but it would make sense as it is a very similar motion to opening the hips in a sumo deadlift position to get hips as close to the bar as possible (which is the main time I notice this odd hip problem). I focused heavily on knees out because it initially stopped the knee clicking, but so did stretching out the hamstring. So what I think has happened is that all the time I thought I had to squat with "knees out" to stop the knee click due to a bad hip (when actually it was tight hamstring), the hips have overcompensated and have almost replicated the same symptoms, even though there is nothing actually wrong with the hips or the hamstrings now; just instead I'm left with the side effects. This however does not change that I'm (as far as I'm currently concerned) not built for sumo deadlifts due to limb lengths etc.

I've been told to lay off the squats until at least Sunday as I was diagnosed with acute tendonitis that is easily cured with rest. I'll aim for squatting on Monday to be safe, and I'll just focus on not letting the knees come in rather than keeping them out. Another thing I have been told for a long time is that my "knees out" motion was excessive in comparison to other lifters, but as I mentioned that this initially was the only way to stop the knee clicking in the beginning.

Also, in for quad gains!
 
mrthingyx said:
i think "knees out" works for certain people and anatomies, but have a look at the "Chinese" method of squatting, where the knees are drawn in slightly.

If you keep yourself really upright and don't shoot your hips back in the concentric part of the squat, you may well suddenly find lifting heavy stuff suddenly doesn't seem anywhere near as heavy anymore...

And you will suffer some of the worst quad DOMS of your life. :D
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Apparently the reason for this in the Chinese weightlifting team is because if that is the strongest position for your body to be in, then that is the position you should be in.

I try to stay as upright as possible but I have a natural lean forward, so that doesn't help anything. At least my hips don't shoot back and up as if I changed my mind of performing a squat and thought I'll try good morning instead.
 
29/5/15 - Friday

Bench and OHP, no squats.

Bench

Bar x lots
40kg x 8
50kg x 2x4
60kg x 2x2
65kg x 8 - Might have been 9

More annoyed that I lost count more than anything. Since I can't guarantee it was 9 I'll keep the weight the same for next week and then hopefully I'll get at least 9 reps at the end of next week for sure.

OHP

Bar x lots
27.5kg x 6
36kg x 3x3
32.5kg x 3x6

I could have got 3x8 on the last working weight but the scapular wasn't sliding the way it (they) should have so I chose to play it safe.

Dumbbell Bench Press

15kg x 3x12

could have handled more weight but wanted to focus on simultaneous contraction again. I wanted a 4th set but there was a bit of clicking in the left elbow and around the scapular so I decided to leave it.

And that's that, nice simple session. Nothing too exciting but I seem to be making gradual progress on both lifts currently.
 
31/5/15 - Sunday

Deadlifts, conventional deadlifts.

Deadlifts knee pulls

60kg x 5
75kg x 4
90kg x 4
105kg x 2x3
112.5kg x 5x2

Deadlift block pulls 3"

105kg x 2x4
120kg x 2x3
135kg(B,S) x 4x2

After 14 sets of deadlifts I felt justified to use straps as initially I managed 135kg for a single and then missed it. I put the straps on and the weight went up ok with goof form too.

I could not be bothered doing anything else, especially where I'm supposed to be squatting tomorrow too!
 
1/6/15 - Monday

Squats (Not really), Bench and OHP. I still can't squat so I'm seriously grumpy.

Squats

Bar x billions
40kg x millions
60kg x thousands
80kg x 2x2

I genuinely have no idea how many reps I did but I did just enough for the knee to work but I would stop as soon as I felt a click, a clunk or if it felt like something moved. By all means I ca squat but I'm choosing not to until the knee is feeling awesome. I sat in a squat position with a bar resting on my knees for about 3 minutes and squats after that felt pretty good but it felt like there was pressure in my right knee so I just left it. I'll try again on Wednesday or Thursday. Looks like I'm going to be a bro for the week and bench and deadlift.

Bench

Bar x lots
40kg x 8
50kg x 2x4
60kg x 3
67.5kg x 4x3
55kg x 3x8

I had to play around with the grip quite a bit since I'm at a new gym and the bars are slightly different to the ones I'm used to. I think I found the right grip for me. The working sets were a tad slow but yet really easy, so that's a good thing, right?

OHP

Bar x lots
25kg x 8
30kg x 4
35kg x 5
32.5kg x 5
30kg x 8

Put my wrist wraps on and for some reason made the reps so much easier. I guess my wrist must be bending back slightly.

Dumbbell incline bench press

15kg x 5x12

Still a tad wobbly but the weight is super easy.

Chest supported/t-bar row machine

Bar x lots
Bar + 10kg x 15
Bar + 20kg x 12
Bar + 27.5kg x 2x12

Lower back started to ache and tbh, I just couldn't be bothered. Not being able to squat properly had ticked me off so much.

So squats are being put aside for now and I shall just focus on bench, OHP and deadlifts. Time to rest, eat lots of chocolates because I'm being grumpy and deadlift tomorrow!
 
mrthingyx said:
What clicks (which part of the knee) and how long has it clicked for? Previous injuries?
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Gamefreak501 said:
A friend of mine has a rotated knee cap. Similar to the symptoms you have - have you spoken to a Doctor about it?
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I initially had little clicks around a year ago, just air escaping, nothing painful or to be concerned about, especially where it would go once the joint was warm. It would also go if my hamstring was stretched enough.

Roll on December 2014. Excessive month of 14/15 hour days sat programming, no training, no stretching and no mobility. When I went back to training end of December for a week or 2 and then starting again in February the "click" had progressed to what felt like muscles and tendons under the knee pulling the femur and patella out of place. This has progressed ever since (has got worse and better during different periods).

Initially I thought it was hip problem. It wasn't, but focusing on it did help. This resulted in throwing my knees out super wide, and sure enough it went as long as I could keep my knees out all the time. This just wasn't possible with heavier weights. The problem then persisted and I found it would go with a lot of hamstring stretching as the area behind the knee was extremely tight. I also found that the tissue the femur meets the glute was knotted and upon releasing that also helped. However, whilst focusing on this it turned out that my calves and ankles had (slightly) tightened, but that only impacted the tightness of the hamstrings. However, due the reduced ROM in the squat could have aided to whatever is currently going on, rather than because of tight ankles.

I'm trying to avoid doing too much reading on the interwebs about the problem because most articles instantly jump to a problem with the ACL. I however do not think it's the ACL as there is no real pain, no inflammation, and I still have full range of knee motion.

I'm going to try and see a physio tomorrow about it and I may go to the doctors if the physio recommends it.
 
3/6/15 - Wednesday

Bench and deadlifts. Warmed up with some bar squats and some weightlifting style dynamic stuff. A minor click in the knee but so much better! Few more days should do it! I might even leave it until net week but do something like leg extensions, GHR, back extensions and good mornings to strengthen the hamstrings and the muscles around the knees.

Deadlifts

60kg x 5
80kg x 3
100kg x 3
115kg x 3
127.5kg(B,S) x 6 - Yay

I was disappointed at first (had another 1-2 in me but thought I'd leave it) but it turns out that the calculator proposed a higher max than what I got last week so an improvement is an improvement!

Deadlift Knee-Pulls

75kg x 4
90kg x 4
105kg x 5x4

Mainly DOH, the last 2 sets were mixed grip.

Bench

Bar x lots
40kg x 8
47.5kg x 2x6
55kg x 2x5
65kg x 2x3
72.5kg x 2x1

Nailed it! Misgrooved the first 72.5kg but went up super easy regardless. The second one looked slower but it was a lot more controlled coming down onto the chest and it absolute flew up.

Dumbbell Flyes

10kg x 4x12

And that's that.

Really happy with how everything went. Admittedly actually getting another 2 reps on the main working set of deadlifts would have been nice but never mind, progress is progress. Bench seems to be coming along and it just looks like I need to get used to handling heavier weight, rather than trying to do it for billions of reps.

I shall go in for a super light session tomorrow to work on rehab and prehab for my knee and my shoulders.
 
5/6/15 - Friday

Bench and OHP. Did a lot of hip mobility and did some squats and overhead squats (yes, I actually managed them!) before hand. As well as some straight legged muscle snatches and Klokov press as warmups.

Bench

Bar x lots
40kg x 8
50kg x 2x4
60kg x 2x2
65kg x 9 - rep pb!

Last rep was wibbly wobbly and even the eight was a tad scetchy as it just about touched my chest, but I'm happy and counting them all as I initially started out with fully controlled and properly paused.

OHP

Bar x 8
27.5kg x 6
32.5kg x 3
37.5kg x 3x1 - Flew up
35kg x 3x5 - Much, much easier than I expected

Pleasantly surprised since the 32.5kg warmup felt a tad iffy but all of the working sets were brilliant.

Happy with that. Rest for now and shall deadlift tomorrow :D
 
6/6/15 - Saturday

16 sets of deadlifts in 54 minutes. Go!

Deficit Deadlifts 3"

60kg x 5
75kg x 3
90kg x 2x3
97.5kg x 4x3

Deadlift Block Pulls 3"

105kg x 2x4
120kg(B) x 2x4
127.5kg(B,S) x 4x4

It turns out I like deficit deadlifts, I like them a lot. They do however knacker you out when you want to go and do anything else.
Block pulls in generally were brilliant but the last 4 working sets were exhausting and straps were used. I may have been able to do it without straps but I didn't have the time to find out.
 
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