This is getting ridiculous (energy prices - Strictly NO referrals!)

jpaul · 12 May 2022 at 17:15

MatsyLR said:
According to the energy company's they are selling electricity and gas at a loss. They have to make up the shortfall in other areas of the business.

but that's not true - the wind farms even with their high generation costs/cfd are paying back £660M to government - no loss there, or for the supplier who pre-bought at a lower than wholesale price, and then sells to us at the cap,
the wholesale prices seems rather theoretical in this respect, how much spare energy do they have and who could they sell it to at wholesale rates (abroad?)

now, if you could make hydrogen with additional energy that would change the market, the overnight rates would shoot up, and time-shifting with home batteries would be less economic,
so I think I'd be investing in panels before batteries (above discussion)

I don't know what govt pot those 660m CFD payments go into ?

chrcoluk · 13 May 2022 at 13:55

Scramz said:
The cheap rates have always been around and always will. Suppliers need the balance the supply and demand at all times, that is why electric is cheap over night when demand is low. EDF off peak night rate is 4.5p but their gas prices are really high.

I am going down the Telsa powerwall route, its sadly expensive. Based on my napkin maths, ROI is about 4-5 years for our usage Vs the suggested price cap increase coming in Oct. The warranty is 80% retention after 10 years, so currently ROI is looking good vs warranty. Securing one in the first place was proving very hard.

Solar panels ROI is just a joke at the moment tbh, hence why I am going battery only/first for now.

Shame these tariffs seem hard to get, on Octopus one has to own a EV to get on it. The suppliers getting cheap night electric doesnt mean much if its not passed onto consumers at a reasonable price as well. Talks on MSE have indicated Octopus may have deals with car companies hence the restriction.

Given so many people have smart meters now it really probably should be a standard thing enforced by ofgem at this point for night rates.

Chris344 · 13 May 2022 at 14:44

ci_newman said:
In your pricing have you included using excess power to heat your hot water too? Your gas usage for the "warm" months could be also zero, excluding standing charges. Arguably heating your water with eco7 rates on the immersion @ 7.5p/kwh would be cheaper than the forecasted gas prices this winter too.

How much is their Tesla only tariff?

I'm on their GO tariff until next March @ 23p kWh in the day and 5p kWh off peak.

silversurfer · 13 May 2022 at 15:24

Can anyone whose with Octopus get that GO tariff ? I know people on Octopus and they told me after asking CS they are advised just the normal cap rates are the best possible available for them. 1 person was previously fixed for a year till recently, now they running up a bill I have advised them not to use gas heating till winter, on a cold day just a fan heater is going to limit big bills (1 kid has asthma). I really think they should get a smart meter because it'd be more obvious they are burning money they dont have.

Neil79 · 13 May 2022 at 15:45

silversurfer said:
Can anyone whose with Octopus get that GO tariff ?

Only if you have an electric car and are with Octopus

touch · 13 May 2022 at 16:14

silversurfer said:
Can anyone whose with Octopus get that GO tariff ? I know people on Octopus and they told me after asking CS they are advised just the normal cap rates are the best possible available for them. 1 person was previously fixed for a year till recently, now they running up a bill I have advised them not to use gas heating till winter, on a cold day just a fan heater is going to limit big bills (1 kid has asthma). I really think they should get a smart meter because it'd be more obvious they are burning money they dont have.

If the usage is mostly from the heater then the GO tariff is probably not what you want. The unit rates at the times you're likely to be using the heater are higher so it would end up costing more.
That sort of tariff is only going to work out cheaper for people using the electricity at the cheaper times - like those charging EVs or battery storage.

Stu999 · 13 May 2022 at 16:35

Sizewell C nuclear plant decision delayed a little: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-61433821

Energize · 13 May 2022 at 17:23

Stu999 said:
Sizewell C nuclear plant decision delayed a little: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-61433821

FFS, I hope these NIMBY's are the first to have blackouts.

chrcoluk · 13 May 2022 at 21:30

silversurfer said:
Can anyone whose with Octopus get that GO tariff ? I know people on Octopus and they told me after asking CS they are advised just the normal cap rates are the best possible available for them. 1 person was previously fixed for a year till recently, now they running up a bill I have advised them not to use gas heating till winter, on a cold day just a fan heater is going to limit big bills (1 kid has asthma). I really think they should get a smart meter because it'd be more obvious they are burning money they dont have.

People on MSE are now reporting they actually checking if you own a EV, there is also a new EV tariff tied to one car manufacturer so the tariff is likely sponsored which I think is dumb. These tariffs should be an option for anyone with a smart meter in my opinion.

Whether its better or not depends on your usage, if you dont use much at night, a SVR tariff is probably better, but if you either a night owl or keep things like a server running 24/7 it might work out better. Its fat better than the old E7 tariffs. I assume the tariff is exempt from cap which will mean its on peak rate will be considerably higher if taken up now?

jpaul · 13 May 2022 at 22:05

Octopus demanding proof of an ev may well be in anticipation of chancellor taxing ev energy , which is really, only fair;
you have a default vat charge unless you provide details of actual units used.

Energize · 14 May 2022 at 06:01

jpaul said:
Octopus demanding proof of an ev may well be in anticipation of chancellor taxing ev energy , which is really, only fair;
you have a default vat charge unless you provide details of actual units used.

Nothing like taxing something to encourage people to adopt it eh? :rolleyes:

Richie · 14 May 2022 at 07:02

Energize said:
Nothing like taxing something to encourage people to adopt it eh?

What do you suggest should be done to replace the lost revenue from petrol/diesel sales and VED given EVs pay none from that?

Apart from per mileage charging I mean.

theone8181 · 14 May 2022 at 07:14

Richie said:
What do you suggest should be done to replace the lost revenue from petrol/diesel sales and VED given EVs pay none from that?

Apart from per mileage charging I mean.

I can see there just being a flat road tax of a couple of grand per car. Not sure how you differentiate between normal use and ev use apart from massive loading telling you when it's charging. Is that also how octopus know you have an ev?

Energize · 14 May 2022 at 07:58

Richie said:
What do you suggest should be done to replace the lost revenue from petrol/diesel sales and VED given EVs pay none from that?

Apart from per mileage charging I mean.

An equivilent reduction in government spending, or closing all the tax loopholes for millionaires?

Failing that, increasing taxes just about anywhere else would be better than putting it on green technologies.

Richie · 14 May 2022 at 08:14

Energize said:
An equivilent reduction in government spending, or closing all the tax loopholes for millionaires?

Failing that, increasing taxes just about anywhere else would be better than putting it on green technologies.

Although I agree with the first part (closing loopholes), a reduction in government spending may not be popular when you consider that could include no/low wage increases for government workers including teachers (who love to always say they don't get paid enough as it is) and NHS

On your second point - given the cost of green technologies (EVs for example) this could increase taxes on the poorer who cannot afford such technologies whereas the wealthier can.

SPG · 14 May 2022 at 08:23

Richie said:
What do you suggest should be done to replace the lost revenue from petrol/diesel sales and VED given EVs pay none from that?

Apart from per mileage charging I mean.

Mileage charge is the fairest way of doing it and a surcharge when you buy a new motor.

SDK^ · 14 May 2022 at 08:26

Richie said:
What do you suggest should be done to replace the lost revenue from petrol/diesel sales and VED given EVs pay none from that?

Apart from per mileage charging I mean.

Easy - Increase the tax on ICE vehicles

200sols · 14 May 2022 at 08:29

SDK^ said:
Easy - Increase the tax on ICE vehicles

That doesn't solve anything long term. EVs and EV fuel will need to be taxed like petrol/diesel is now. Mileage charge will happen imo.

b0rn2sk8 · 14 May 2022 at 08:30

You already pay over £1k in additional tax (VAT) when you buy an EV in the first place given most still have a near £7k cost differential to their ICE equivalent.

Flat rate road tax makes so much more sense and it’s so much cheaper to administer. Base it in the cars value and efficiency to keep it relatively ‘fair’ on those who buy cheaper, less power hungry cars. Collect is via monthly direct debit.

Don’t forget a huge chunk of that fuel duty comes from things other than cars and vans so the money to make up, when spread across 30m vehicles isn’t massive. The HGV sector chunders through diesel like no tomorrow and will be picking up a sizeable proportion of the tab.

Richie · 14 May 2022 at 08:31

SDK^ said:
Easy - Increase the tax on ICE vehicles

Again, increase taxes on the poorer who cannot afford EV cars whilst the wealthier can?