Soldato
I'd better watch what I say as my girlfriend is French-Israeli. Her Mother is French and her Father is Israeli, and ex-military to boot.
To not like Israel is to not like Jews
- Thread starter Ricochet J
- Start date
Soldato
This.
I hate the foreign policy, but have no problem with the people - pretty much my exact feelings on most governments/nations of the world - individuals I care about, collectives not so much.
Besides, Israel doesn't speak for all Jewish people.
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Soldato
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- 8 Mar 2007
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How does 'can't argue with that' = 'I support Israeli foreign policy on all counts?
You've painted Hamas as a rational and fairly tolerant bunch, if you want to believe that that is your bag. If the fact that pretty much every Western Government (including the EU) regard them as a terrorist organization doesn't worry you then fine.
To be honest I think both sides are in the wrong most of the time and I'd wish they'd just hurry up and sort it out. But I just feel too many people 'side' with Palestine simply because they are the underdogs (and the fact the BBC is pretty much a mouthpiece for their cause) and feel sorry for them.
All Israeli's are ex-military. (at least the vast majority of them anyway)
I know a few Israeli's (many I have met in the last few months and talking to them has altered my views on this somewhat I must say) and they are either apolitical and are far more interested in their everyday lives than the politics of Likud, Hamas and so on, or are of the opinion that all this anti-semite nonsense that some in the Israeli Govt come out with is just political soothsaying.
With a couple of exceptions they generally just want everyone to live together and get along...they don't want walls separating them from Gaza or the West Bank, but then there is a difference between the average Israeli from Tel Aviv etc...and a settler or someone living in Jerusalem.
Basically the whole damned thing is one big sorry mess that no-one knows how to solve or extricate themselves from.
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Soldato
Yeah I know about the National Service, but he was in for something like 30 odd years.
Soldato
To be fair, judging objectively Israel is also a terrorist state & the occupation illegal (IIRC).How does 'can't argue with that' = 'I support Israeli foreign policy on all counts?
You've painted Hamas as a rational and fairly tolerant bunch, if you want to believe that that is your bag. If the fact that pretty much every Western Government (including the EU) regard them as a terrorist organization doesn't worry you then fine.
To be honest I think both sides are in the wrong most of the time and I'd wish they'd just hurry up and sort it out. But I just feel too many people 'side' with Palestine simply because they are the underdogs (and the fact the BBC is pretty much a mouthpiece for their cause) and feel sorry for them.
Watch sky news/fox news & you will find it's the polar opposite.
If you use the actual legal definition of genocide, which is taking steps to destroy (not necessarily kill) an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group, they aren't being covert about it at all:
Palestinians, Muslim and Christian alike, have been ethnically cleansed from the vast majority of land owned by their grandparents.
Israelis don't bother with superficial politeness, which can be quite jarring when you first encounter it. They're as friendly as most otherwise.
Your argument doesn't hold water because Hamas sprang up in response to Israeli oppression (and, hilariously, were actually tolerated by the Israelis initially as a means of fracturing Palestinian unity); if Palestinians were militarily dominant, Hamas wouldn't exist.
How does 'can't argue with that' = 'I support Israeli foreign policy on all counts?
I didn't say that, you were speaking in generalisations...you were generalising that because Israel has the power to do something yet it doesn't means that we should give some level of acceptance to what policies they do follow.
Not all Countries see Hamas as a terrorist organisation. And even if they did, it doesn't mean a whole lot regarding what they want.
You have made a claim that "if Hamas had the military power of Israel that they would prosecute a campaign of Genocide against the Israeli's" I simply pointed out that they probably would not and the reasons why they wouldn't. Like was said earlier, Hamas problably wouldn't exist, and if it did it would be solely as a political party, much like Likud in Israel, born out of a Terrorist Organisation but not one themselves. Like I said, the likely situation would just be a reversal of what we see today, given similar criteria.
It is too complicated and mired in ancient prejudices to be sorted out any time soon, if ever.
It is no longer about who is right and who is wrong, it is about trying to find a compromise that the PEOPLE can live with safely and without fear.......unfortunately those in Power are interested, not in the PEOPLE, but in point scoring and sovereignty.
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that is just a cultural thing, they are quite abrubt but nothing is meant by it
Israel made pre-emptive strikes in the face of threats from their neighbours....they were not attacked first.
What are you on about? The neighbouring Arab states attacking Israel in 1948 (Arab-Israeli War). Then they attacked again later on.
Soldato
To not like Israel is to not like constant oppression, economic and social terrorism against Palestinian people.
To not like a person simply because they are Israeli is racist.
It's like an Iraqi saying "I hate the British because they invaded my country". Few British people supported the invasion of Iraq, and even fewer were actually involved.
It's the standard 'them and us' mentality which only exists to divide and cause hatred.
To not like a person simply because they are Israeli is racist.
It's like an Iraqi saying "I hate the British because they invaded my country". Few British people supported the invasion of Iraq, and even fewer were actually involved.
It's the standard 'them and us' mentality which only exists to divide and cause hatred.
Surely that would depend upon which war you are talking about?
Not in 1967 they didn't.....The Israeli's launched a premptive strike against the Arab nations of Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Which is when they took control of the West Bank and Gaza and annexed the Golan Heights......they also took Sinai, although eventually withdrew.
The gradual spread of Israeli immigrant settlers into the West Bank and parts of Gaza and specifically Jerusalem are one of the main issues here.....as it is the 1967 borders that are the generally accepted definition for an independent Palestinian State.
And in 1948 the situation was not so clearly defined, there was an internal Israeli-Arab civil war going on because Ben Gurion declared the existence of Israel, and the majority of people who actually lived in Israel objected.....The Arab-Israeli war was only part of the wider Palestine War in which it happened.
The bottom line is that Israel has a defined right to exist, it has a right to defend itself...However it also has a responsibility to its civilians and those who it has control and/or stewardship over, and in this regard some Israeli Administrations are sadly lacking.
To my mind the whole idea of a Jewish State in the middle of Arab held territory was never going to end well....there should have been the creation of a secular state for both Jews and Arabs, with no emphasis on their respective religions. However, neither sides leaders wanted that, they simply wanted to exert there own prejudices and we see it still happening today.
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A 'Jew' is primarily a race and secondly a religion. Most Israelis are secular Jews - Israel permits you citizenship if your maternal Grandmother was a racial Jew - nothing to do with religion as all the know-nothings say.
The BBC is pro-Israel. Any organisation that supports a racial state for Jews while ethnically cleansing the Palestinians must be considered pro-Israel. Remember how much the BBC villify Apartheid South Africa or even the BNP but support a homeland for the 'chosen race'.
The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is done by stealth so they won't stir up resentment in ignorant Westerners like you. Do you really think if they sent the army in to kill every Palestinian, the oil-producing Muslims nations would not strangle oil production, bringing our countries to a halt? There are reasons they don't do this.
The fact that Jews own the power structures and media in the West means they own the minds of the Western masses as illustrated by the replies in this thread. The thread starter seems to want to discourage criticism of Israel by playing the racial card that has been instilled in our minds since school.
Read this book, you need it.
http://www.euvolution.com/library/jewishsupremacism.pdf
Or audiobook here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYayATn1kGc
BTW not ALL Jews support racist Zionism and the notion of the chosen race but these are not so prevalent among the Jewish elite who weald the real power.
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Castiel you forget their country is threatened everyday and they have been attacked more than once so it's more than understandable why they attacked. But you forget to mention all this.
elmarko1234, "Israel has the capability to wipe Palestine off the map and has been able to do it for decades. The fact is they haven't"
That's because they lied about developing nuclear weapons.
elmarko1234, "Israel has the capability to wipe Palestine off the map and has been able to do it for decades. The fact is they haven't"
That's because they lied about developing nuclear weapons.
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The Jews are an Ethnoreligious group, there is no dominance toward Ancestry or Religion, it is a combination of both.
You will have to clarify the claim that most Israelis are secular Jews though, as the term is not well defined in Israel and the figures vary widely from as low as 15% to as high as 80%......with conservative estimates putting it at around 40%.
This is further complicated by many Israelis who, while religious in the sense that they believe in God and so on....they feel that living in Israel amongst other Jews and speaking Hebrew is expression enough.
it is understandable, (from a Palestinian Arab point of view their cause is equally understandable) and I didn't fail to mention it, I clearly stated they have the right to exist and the right to defend themselves...... but that doesn't mean that we should accept their Govts foreign policies based on that right of self defence.....in many ways Israeli Govt policy only exacerbates the situation....Settlements for example.
Both sides are culpable to one extent or another.......it is interesting to hear the different viewpoints of someone from Tel Aviv to that of someone from Jerusalem as I have done recently......it paints it own picture and altered my perspective somewhat.
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