Too white, Too Straight.

Soldato
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In what way is California a "wrecked state"?

See as a general rule, I no longer bother with your questions because all you do is see something you disagree with, make a pointed demand for clarification and then disregard the answer in favour of either zoning in one micro-part of it or spin off to ask another pointed question or demand ever further proof.

Posting this mainly just to share with other people.
 
Caporegime
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Ok, so we can just make statements, present them as fact and hope they go unquestioned...

When I googled "California's moving to Texas" the top result seemed to suggest one reason is that California has the highest income tax rate of any state (12.3%), whereas Texas is one of seven states where you pay no additional income tax.
 
Caporegime
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Yet it’s the single most wealthy state (in terms of gdp contribution) in the US, a country which only seems to value wealth and the idea that your more moral/correct if you’re wealthier than your peers. (I’ll be clear in my opinion here, this is not how to run a society)

Considering it’s the very same conservative antieverything people who espouse said ideology, mighty strange to have a different tune just because it’s California.

This is the very same state that props up those little unimportant holes (Along with New York and Texas) in the Middle much the same way London does with the north of England or Cornwall, yet they still have the gall to complain about them doing things their way?
 
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Associate
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Those unimportant holes in the middle like Utah, Colorado, Kansas and Nebraska get far less federal money than California.

Whilst I wouldn't call California a mess, it's facing serious issues with rising debt, unsustainable social spending, spiralling crime and chronic lack of infrastructure spending. I can speak from experience from being in San Francisco and LA last year that crime is a huge problem, I definitely felt uncomfortable after dark, moreso than places like Louisanna or Texas.

A lot of the blame is being placed squarely at the feet at the Dems. Whether that's true is another question.

People are leaving, it's a fact and going to places like Boulder and Austin.
 
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Soldato
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Yet it’s the single most wealthy state (in terms of gdp contribution) in the US, a country which only seems to value wealth and the idea that your more moral/correct if you’re wealthier than your peers. (I’ll be clear in my opinion here, this is not how to run a society)

It's also the State that has the highest poverty rate in the USA, accounts for 30% of welfare recipients across the entire USA despite having 12% of the population, has stratospheric housing costs and tax rates and add-ons that are fine for the wealthy but disastrous for the poor. It has collapsing infrastructure, terrible water issues and massively divided cities. Good analysis on California by Victor Davis-Hanson for anyone who fancies watching a video over their lunchbreak.

 
Man of Honour
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I agree fully with this. As a history graduate I can acknowledge it's a big problem in the field of study with garbage academia.

Certain groups have been trying to hijack race and colour to prove their narrative, as an example that ancient Egyptians were in fact sub Saharan African black, claiming that Western history has white washed them.

I don't really care what colour actor plays a historical role on TV (nobody has a right to that outrage since Laurence Olivier played Othello) but trying to propagandise actually historical events and research is not on.

The Egyptian = sub-Saharan "black" thing is a particularly extreme racist lie when it's applied to the Egyptians most commonly depicted on screen, the Ptolomeic Egyptians. Most famously, the last Cleopatra. I forget which number Cleopatra she was. The famous one, lover of Gaius Julius Caesar and Marcus Antonius. That whole Egyptian dynastry was entirely of Greek ancestry and would have looked Greek.

It's even reached the extent of these people complaining about Egyptian actors playing the roles of Egyptians because they think Egyptians are too "white" to play the roles of Egyptians. The denial of reality has reached that degree of craziness.

Accurate. A picture of a roman legion with a few Black faces would not be implausible and might stir some interest in the subject. Depicting one or two legionaries and having them all or half of them be Black is a little... over-representative. It's not really a big deal to me, so long as they're not trying to push an inaccurate view of history. Likely they did it just to generate some discussion or as an interesting point. In amongst a slew of so much political agenda and historical revisionism though, it's a little "hmmm".

I think it's more than a little "hmmm". I think it's deliberate propaganda to promote racism. There would also be an opportunity to use an accurate portrayal of history to reduce racism rather than increase it because there genuinely wasn't racism in that context in reality. A Roman from Numidia, a Roman from Bithynia...they were Romans. Particularly so in a legion, where they would sleep in the same tent, fight and protect each other in the line, etc.

And I think they didn't care both because they weren't taught to see race and identity as the same thing and because racism tends to result from widescale migrations, not individuals. If there were mass migration maybe you'd have started to see more racism. But a couple of Black guys show up in your English village and people are more fascinated than hostile. (Naturally, so long as they're Christian!).

Which is exactly what happened. By the early renaissance period migration from Africa to England was on a much larger scale (not always voluntarily - some were slaves) and that's when the racism started in earnest. Most famously with Elizabeth I's public comment that "there are of late divers blackmoores brought into this realme, of which kinde of people there are allready here to manie, [..]”

As you also rightly point out, religion was another important factor. The medieval migrants were almost exclusively Christian. That was the reason they migrated to England - they wanted to get out of Islamic countries and into Christian ones and England was a common choice. My guess is that was at least largely because England had a lot of ships and thus more opportunities to get there from north Africa. But later on that wasn't the case and that was the second big factor in the change. Elizabeth I was clear and explicit about the big problem being that "most of them are infidels, having no understanding of Christ or his Gospel".

In a high or late medieval English port town or city, especially on the south coast, there probably wouldn't even have been the fascination you refer to because while the number of people with dark skin was small it probably wouldn't have been small enough to be enough for another person with dark skin to be a novelty. In a village, sure, but not a significant port.

Some while ago, I watched some documentaries about forensic anthropology. Best known in the novels by Kathy Reichs, but it's a real thing. There's a unit for it in the UK. Anyway, one of the human remains they examined was exhumed from a medieval friary in Ipswich that was discovered when some building work was being done. What attracted attention was that the remains were initially identified as a sub-Saharan man by the archeologists who worked the site before the building work was allowed to be done. That would have been fascinating. Someone migrating from Africa north of the Sahara to Ipswich in the middle ages was nothing to write home about, but from south of the Sahara was a different thing entirely. That wasn't known to have happened. The amount of information the team was able to uncover was fascinating, but the person's birthplace wasn't. The initial identification was mistaken - they definitely came from north of the Sahara.

Oh, don't get me started on the Afrocentrists. I've had some EPIC arguments with them about Egypt. A while back a tomb of two half-brothers was found. One of which was half-Nubian the other not (different mothers rather than different fathers, I presume). That sole fact when it emerged was like dropping a pig in a piranha pool. Afro-centrists swarmed on it ignoring everything else. Hello - you had Nubia (a Black nation) immediately South of Egypt. And later invaded by Egypt. Of COURSE there were Black people in Egypt. It didn't make it a "Black Civilisation". The other one is one single line lifted without context from Herodotus where he describes Egyptians as being dark skinned. He meant darker than Greeks and goes on to explicitly say they were the same as (iirc) Colchans who we know were not Black and further go on to talk separately about people with actual Black skin "with hair like wool" as another group again. But no, whenever you talk with an Afrocentrist, they'll tell you that a Greek historian said Egyptians "had dark skin".

It's particularly dumb because if they want a historical Black kingdom to create some Golden Age racial narrative (like Zionists and Jerusalem or White Supremacists and Rome), Nubia and Ethiopia and right ******* next to Egypt and were Black kingdoms. Pretty successful ones, too. But I guess Egypt has the name recognition.

Laying claim to Egypt can be coupled with laying claim to Greek knowledge being copied from Egypt and then run on to claiming that pretty much everything was invented by "blacks" and stolen by those evil demons, the "whites". Perfect for "black" supremacists, but they have to nail down the claim to ancient Egypt first. No doubt at least some of them know it's a lie, but it's a politically useful lie.
 
Caporegime
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It's also the State that has the highest poverty rate in the USA, accounts for 30% of welfare recipients across the entire USA despite having 12% of the population, has stratospheric housing costs and tax rates and add-ons that are fine for the wealthy but disastrous for the poor. It has collapsing infrastructure, terrible water issues and massively divided cities. Good analysis on California by Victor Davis-Hanson for anyone who fancies watching a video over their lunchbreak.


I swear, isn’t infrastructure spending federal? Regardless, aren’t these desirable things from the neocon corner? It’s their economic model after all in full swing, literally the same as the tories failure to erect a viable country.
 
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I swear, isn’t infrastructure spending federal? Regardless, aren’t these desirable things from the neocon corner? It’s their economic model after all in full swing, literally the same as the tories failure to erect a viable country.

The funds are raised and spent at state level. One of the issues for California is that nearly all their road spending comes from petrol taxes. That's dropped dramatically over the last few years due to electric car uptake.

California at state management level has a bloated beurocracy with a lot of accusations of mismanagement. States like Kansas are spending less per head on general infastructure but getting a better product out at the end.

One example of the mismanagement is California committing to a $70 billion high speed rail project (voters agreed to it originally costing $10b), whilst ignoring the crumbling water system that was only designed for 25 million people, but now has to provide for over 40m.
 
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Soldato
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I swear, isn’t infrastructure spending federal? Regardless, aren’t these desirable things from the neocon corner? It’s their economic model after all in full swing, literally the same as the tories failure to erect a viable country.

Most infrastructure and services are funded by the State so far as I'm aware. Searching just now, it seems the Federal government spends a lot on roads and water (in the hundred billions) but it's only around a third of the total spend with the rest being made up by the state itself. Typically.

As regards neocons, I'm unsure of the relevance. (a) Neocons are not the general Right, they're a Zionist power faction within the Right and personally I despise them and (b) California is dominated by the Democrats (specifically by the cities) and (c) super-high welfare payments and numbers are very far from the economic of the Right, including neocons.
 
Man of Honour
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It is also worth noting that when Elizabeth refers to "Blackmoores",

This might well not mean "Negro" Blackmoores.

Arabs/Turks would certainly have been dark enough in comparison to the local English to stand out and be noticed.

Probably true, but I doubt if there was much migration of Arabs and Turks to England at that time. Although she later referred to "Negars and Blackmoores", which might indicate degrees of skin colour. Or maybe not, I don't know.

The big deal was the numbers and them not being Christians, of course. Especially not being Christians. That was a very big deal and especially so if they were Muslims (as they would have been) given that this was after almost 1000 years of pretty much constant attacks by Muslims against Christians with the openly stated goal of ending Christianity entirely.
 
Man of Honour
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It's not working for them because Christianity is slowly being replaced by Atheism, which they hate even more :p

Religion is an inherently more powerful political ideology than atheism, since atheism isn't an ideology at all let alone a political one. The only time atheism has been used politically is not as atheism as such but as a prevention of theism. Religion is a political ideology(*), so it is a potential rival to other political ideologies. That's why it was suppressed by pseudo-communist authoritarian states - those rulers were suppressing potential rivals. Religion is a particularly dangerous political ideology because it claims unchallengeable supernatural authority for itself and thus for the people who have gained power in it.


* I acknowledge the possibility of apolitical theism, but not in any religion with any organisation other than secluded orders that genuinely seperate themselves from society. Some individual theists are apolitical, but theism itself is political.
 
Soldato
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They can dress it up however they want but it's just reverse discrimination, at the end of the day an individual has been denied an opportunity due to his ethnicity and sexual orientation but then when you have a collective mentality that only sees people as groups rather than individuals this is the sort of thing that happens.

Fixed that for you.

There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination/racism/etc." the words are not specifically about white vs the world.
 
Soldato
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Probably true, but I doubt if there was much migration of Arabs and Turks to England at that time. Although she later referred to "Negars and Blackmoores", which might indicate degrees of skin colour. Or maybe not, I don't know.

The big deal was the numbers and them not being Christians, of course. Especially not being Christians. That was a very big deal and especially so if they were Muslims (as they would have been) given that this was after almost 1000 years of pretty much constant attacks by Muslims against Christians with the openly stated goal of ending Christianity entirely.


There may not have been much migration, but there was an awful lot of contact during the Tudor period. And mostly of the wrong sort.

Slave raids by "Turks" and "Blackmoores" from north Africa were a major issue, Particularly in the west country

Indeed, one of the chief drivers in the Crown of the day creating a professional full time Navy was to provide a defense against these raids.

The technological, logistical and economic changes necessary to achieve this laid the foundations for the industrial revolutions and the British Empire.

The rest, as they say, is history.

:)
 
Soldato
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The State of Texas is currently seeing an influx of Upper Middle Class people from California. Who having wrecked their own state with their politics are blissfully moving to Texas to escape their mess and simultaneously trying to repeat the process. It's nuts.

Thats not the reason.

In what way is California a "wrecked state"?

It's not.

Ok, so we can just make statements, present them as fact and hope they go unquestioned...

When I googled "California's moving to Texas" the top result seemed to suggest one reason is that California has the highest income tax rate of any state (12.3%), whereas Texas is one of seven states where you pay no additional income tax.

This is very true. It is also Republicans "escaping" to red states. They don't like liberal laws, they don't like the deprioritisation of religion but mostly they don't like paying taxes.

Those unimportant holes in the middle like Utah, Colorado, Kansas and Nebraska get far less federal money than California.

Whilst I wouldn't call California a mess, it's facing serious issues with rising debt, unsustainable social spending, spiralling crime and chronic lack of infrastructure spending. I can speak from experience from being in San Francisco and LA last year that crime is a huge problem, I definitely felt uncomfortable after dark, moreso than places like Louisanna or Texas.

A lot of the blame is being placed squarely at the feet at the Dems. Whether that's true is another question.

People are leaving, it's a fact and going to places like Boulder and Austin.

Crime isn't spiraling, in fact it is improving. California (and New York) are the closest you will get to a European type location in the US. I would say your sense of "safety" is more a reflection of you than and what you have been reading/watching than a reflection of reality. Any place with a higher population density will "feel" less safe. It's like comparing walking down a country road in Gloucestershire to walking through Shadwell.

It's also the State that has the highest poverty rate in the USA, accounts for 30% of welfare recipients across the entire USA despite having 12% of the population, has stratospheric housing costs and tax rates and add-ons that are fine for the wealthy but disastrous for the poor. It has collapsing infrastructure, terrible water issues and massively divided cities. Good analysis on California by Victor Davis-Hanson for anyone who fancies watching a video over their lunchbreak.

We don't have collapsing infrastructure, we don't have terrible water issues (especially now the draught is effectively over, it hasn't stopped raining since Christmas). Stop reading or watching anything that supports your preconceived views and getting confirmation bias. It's like looking out of a window at some snow, reading the Daily Express and believing their latest "OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING" headline.

We have a very high poverty rate and homeless population because OTHER states ship them here:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...t-america-moves-homeless-people-country-study


The funds are raised and spent at state level. One of the issues for California is that nearly all their road spending comes from petrol taxes. That's dropped dramatically over the last few years due to electric car uptake.

California at state management level has a bloated beurocracy with a lot of accusations of mismanagement. States like Kansas are spending less per head on general infastructure but getting a better product out at the end.

One example of the mismanagement is California committing to a $70 billion high speed rail project (voters agreed to it originally costing $10b), whilst ignoring the crumbling water system that was only designed for 25 million people, but now has to provide for over 40m.

Two points here, the uptake on hybrid and electric vehicles has made zero impact. That is just armchair hyperbole. You cannot compare a driving city like LA and a state the size of California to Kansas based on cost per head, it literally makes no sense.

The rail project was a poorly conceived project by the former Governor of California who has since left. They are trying to wrap up that project without giving money back to the Federal government.

The biggest issue California and the rest of the country faces are the lobbyist groups that are out for big business and give no regard to the actual people.

If anyone has any legitimate questions for someone who has lived here now for years and stays abreast of local and national news (as best you can in the terrible news climate). Please ask, I'd also refrain from watching random YouTube videos or reading sweeping articles from the likes of the Daily Mail or Express.

In contrast, the Brexit vote is the laughing stock of the rest of the world. The reporting here paints the UK as a deluded failing nation making the dumbest decision of recent history. While in my opinion Brexit was a mistake, there is far more minutia to it than a sweeping article or a throw away comment on CNN/Fox News etc. And I personally know that the UK isn't a failing nation, the current Tory leadership is abysmal but life will go on and while the nation won't be better for Brexit, it will be independent.
 
Associate
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Whilst I'm not going to argue with the horse's mouth the infastructure issues are being reported in literally every news outlet there is from Forbes to NY times. Infact you will struggle to find anything out that counters it. If you are saying at ground level there is no problem, then I'll be prepared to believe it, but all national studies point the other way.

As for the safety aspect, I regularly visit several areas of the US and my anecdotal experience of LA and San Francisco wasn't great compared to everywhere else I have been. Statistically crime may be falling but that didnt stop a complete lunatic screaming in my face at Pier 39 or the multiple drug deals in Venice. The only other time I've felt that uneasy, and that includes my time in NY, NOLA etc is when somebody let off a few rounds from a car in Beale Street.

Genuine question, what's the deal with not being able to get breakfast before 9 in SF?
 
Caporegime
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Of course California has some infrastructure issues, like every state and almost every county. However, California's infrastructure issues are far less severe than most of the other US states, and a lot of the issues are related to Federal spending.
 
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