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UK Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by scorza, Jan 31, 2009.

  1. Yas786

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 46,683

    Location: All over the world...

    And ya know what...as much as you and DD dont like it, i think its absolutely terrific that we have a range of cultures in this country and within London itself.
     
  2. ac1d1ty

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 26, 2007

    Posts: 2,470

    I don't. I like the idea, but not the reality.
     
  3. Yas786

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 46,683

    Location: All over the world...

    Fair enough but the idea and reality of it sits fine with me at the moment...i dont have a major issue with it other than to curb it a bit and make it more difficult to get in.
     
  4. Gaidin109

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 12, 2009

    Posts: 4,878

    Agreed. People are People, doesnt matter what colour, creed or race they may be, the real proplem is coping with the social and infrastructure needs of too many people in a small country, not where said people are from.
     
  5. dirtydog

    PermaBanned

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    Location: Essex

    Fine in theory, doesn't work in practice.
     
  6. Random_23

    Gangster

    Joined: Sep 21, 2007

    Posts: 417

    Location: Nottingham

    I have no problem with the rising population, but I do have a problem with the fact that a large % of them cannot speak our language nor do they follow the rules/law of the UK.

    Imagine going to India or any middle eastern country and taking your top off or looking after your wife letting her on a beach in a bikini? We get locked up for it, so a VERY large intelligent % follow there law.. why dont they do the same for us?

    Rules for one.. comes to mind. I also hate the fact that when reporting (papers/BBC etc) they publish the fact that a WHITE man stabbed another person but if they are black or asian it gets published as a youth or thug..

    Another thing slightly OT.
    Why cant we rescue the couple being held by pirates? our own british people yet can send millions on end to african countrys? Its beggers belief and really annoys me and im sure many people my age.
     
  7. Yas786

    Caporegime

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    Posts: 46,683

    Location: All over the world...

    It does work in practice but in your blinkered little world there DD, it wouldnt work...only thing that would work is for you to have your little uptopian world of the UK being white only....good luck with achieving that aim, you and the BNP need a miracle for that to happen...im just thankful that people of your thinking are but a small minority:).
     
  8. Gaidin109

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 12, 2009

    Posts: 4,878


    Only because of the ill-informed, ill-educated and downright racist minorities. Being a Muslim doesnt make you a terrorist, any more than being white make you a racist. I understand that on each side of the argument there are extreme views but that doesnt change the fact that the majority of people couldnt care less as long as they are left alone to live their lives without interference.
     
  9. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,211

    We could probably quite easily, but could we do it without the couple getting killed? Much harder to do and is it worth the risk if there is a diplomatic solution?
     
  10. Floogie

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 16, 2008

    Posts: 908

    If you have an unrestrained influx of immigration, it brings new cultures, beliefs and values which are frequently in opposition to the host country. This then goes on to cause instability and hositility as competing cultures, beliefs and values vie for supremacy as their base population expands.

    A free world and free movement of people is a great idea and easy to succumb to, but in reality it doesn't work does it?
     
  11. fini

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 26, 2004

    Posts: 7,560

    Location: London

    To me it is simple, the Koran makes the hijab pretty mandatory, whilst it is arguable that the niqab is actually against the Koran. Even if, as most people believe, it is decided that the Koran does not advise against the Niqab (it's a matter of interpretation) then there's still nothing in the Koran calling for it. On that basis, the niqab cannot be religious as there is no religious reason for its use.

    I didn't argue that the face wasn't part of the beauty of a woman. If you read my post again you'll see that the Koran says you should show what is necessary. Showing your face is necessary for proper communication and, as such, women are not required to cover them.

    "that which is neccesary" is simply a question of fact - any sensible understanding of the term would understand it to not include something that significantly impairs your ability to have a proper conversation.

    Consider this - we have Sunday off. Why do we have Sunday off? The answer has to be because it's just the culture of the UK. Well, of course actually it's originally for religious reasons, but you do not take Sunday off work each weak because your religion requires it, but because everyone else does - it is the culture. Just because something was based on a religious reason to begin with doesn't mean that it cant enter in to the culture such that the main reason for it eventually becomes cultural rather than religious.

    I think we're obfuscating things if we start talking about 'Islamic culture' because if we do we must talk of the UK as Christian culture and Italy and Spain as specifically Catholic culture whereas really these are individual cultures that may have been heavily influenced by the predominant religion of that country. Religion may influence culture, but I'd be weary to start talking of Islamic, Christian and Buddhist 'culture'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  12. RDM

    Capodecina

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    I would say that on the basis that people say they wear it for religious reasons makes it religious. The book is open to interpretation, some interpret it differently to others. If you ask a woman why she wears the naqab will she say it is for cultural reasons or for religious reasons?
     
  13. Gaidin109

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    Does it matter what people wear, as long as it is not a bomb belt I think we should let anyone wear whatever they like for whatever reason they see fit.
     
  14. Its_Me

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    Then let people wear what they wish, this includes 'hoodies' & 'caps', plus anything that also would stop recognition.
    The problem is when the people wear these items and then wish to be treated in a 'special way'.
    Back to equality for all.
     
  15. Gaidin109

    Mobster

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    Like I said, let people wear what they like. The thing with wanting to be treated in a special way is, if you dont enable them, then its irrelevent.
     
  16. Its_Me

    Mobster

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    This particular subject/question did come up on question time this week (it is know that it is not religion, but cultural), and as it happens a rather selective view was representative.
    One of the views ( that I do not subscribe too) was intimidation, but that is exactly the reason some places ban the wearing of the hoods and/or caps.
    I do not wear anything to purposely make a statement, nor do I wear an item to hide myself, or ask for special treatment due to the items of clothing I wear.
    But I can understand why most people would feel that hiding their face has an alternative agenda, due to how humans are.
    So if it is about culture, then surely the culture these people live in should take precedence over the culture they claim as the reason they wear said items.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2010
  17. RDM

    Capodecina

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    I wasn't challanging what people wear, just the explanation for it. To say it is "cultural not religious" is a bit of a cop out of the cultural reasons they are wearing it for are religous. It also a bit of a grey area from a legal perspective, could a bank refuse custom to someone wearing a niqab without opening themselves to possible religious discrimination rules?

    I also think that it is a bit of an issue culturally too. If you intend to intergrate into our society then you are going to find it very difficult to do wearing a niqab. Finally there is the issue of "choice". How real a choice is it and how much of it is pressure/conditioning?
     
  18. wozencl

    Hitman

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    It seems we're going around in circles, but perhaps you have at least started to pick up on some of my points even if unintentionally.

    Herein lies the heart of the issue, to you it may be simple (how could it not be? It's your opinion/interpretation.) to say that the Niqab is against the Koran, however, for many who follow a different interpretation it is not. The matter is clearly not resolved as Islamic scholars in various countries are still debating the issue now. The Koran may not explicitly mention the use of Niqab but it does say that women should "cover their ornamenents" and "hide their beauty" obviously such vague terms are open to interpretation. Some branches of Islam will have different opinions on what constitutes "that which is necessary", I am pretty sure for some "necessary" means the face must be covered unless in the company of your husband or family.

    Exactly. The Koran does not explicitily list what is necessary, which again is my point. You and I may see the face as necessary for communication but an Egyptian/Saudi Arabian/Afghan woman may not - it's all down to interpretation.


    It's a question of opinion as it's meaning is completely subjective. What appears sensible to us can be completely opposed to a view another person considers sensible.

    The link between the two is tenuous at best and I feel we're getting somewhat sidetracked.

    I doubt anyone here would deny that culture influences religion and conversely religion influences culture, I am certainly not to trying argue otherwise. My point is in cases such as the wearing of the Niqab trying to draw a distinction between the two is almost impossible.

    Finally, I would like to bring us back to the post I replied to originally:

    For me it's quite clear that many people wear the Niqab as they believe it's a requirement of their faith and this is a view supported and encouraged by some religious scholars in particular parts of the Muslim world. Furthermore I believe this thread is about Muslim culture and religion as a whole (the UK Muslim population is definitely not one homogenous group with one set of beliefs) and not specifically those parts endorsemed by one particular country or branch of the faith. Therefore, in my view, points relating to the wearing of the Niqab definitely belong in this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2010
  19. izzy eckerslike

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 16, 2007

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    Location: Worcestershire

    When I was young in the sixties & the first Pakistanis began to arrive it was quite strange to see the women walking 10 paces behind the men, you rarely see that these days but it's all about how Islam sees women as being inferior to men in many ways.
    I fail to see how any woman could freely wear the niqab not feel discomfort, try walking round all day in the summer with a balaclava on to get the effect. I never saw those in the UK untill these last few years.
    It's interesting to note that many Islamic men 'bend' the rules that may affect their lifestyle such as smoking & drinking & conveniently the wearing of a head covering for men is not mandatory except in a mosque.

    That Women are required in some countries to cover themselves completely is so that other men might not look upon them & therefore try to 'tempt' them . Afghanistan under the Taliban is a good example of this, Women were not permitted to drive cars, not permitted to attend school etc.
    Read this & be shocked & remember that the Taliban may one day return

    http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm





    In some Islamic states men look upon their Women as possessions just like their goats. Some Islamic men seem so paranoid that their women will be unfaithful that such disgusting acts as female circumcision is still widely practiced today in countries like Sudan.
    Prepubescent girls have parts of their vagina hacked off without anesthetic by the local Matriarchs of so that it's impossible to feel any sexual pleasure & therefore the girl when married will stay faithful.
    A programme on CH4 about this a few years back still haunts me & I can still hear the screams of a young girl as they 'operated' on her with a kitchen knife.
    Google it & prepare to be shocked

    example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDJyZIPvExY

    What happens if a woman is adulterous in some countries? she gets stoned to death while the man who perpetrated the deed just walks free stating that she 'tempted him' & therefore had no choice.

    This sort of victimization against Women does not belong here in the UK & all attempts to stop it taking a hold here should be taken
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2010
  20. Farore

    Gangster

    Joined: Aug 11, 2007

    Posts: 405

    Location: Manchester

    double post
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010