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UK Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by scorza, Jan 31, 2009.

  1. fini

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 26, 2004

    Posts: 7,561

    Location: London

    I feel that your point on interpretation is somewhat overstated. Anything, really, could be claimed to be a matter of interpretation, but to be sensible we must set limits where we say that A is objectively true whilst B is objectively false. I do not doubt that somewhere someone is wearing pink plimsolls all day long claiming it to be a central tenant of Christianity, but to have a reasoned discussion we must discard the fringe beliefs of the loonies, nutters and extremists. Science tells us that a high percentage of our ability to be properly understood, and certainly empathised with, when we talk comes from non-verbal cues. By covering the face we are removing these cues and thus, objectively, we are materially reducing our ability to communicate with others. Is it necessary to communicate with others? Clearly this must be answered in the affirmative; few activities that warrant going outside do not involve, to some extent, communication with others. So proper communication is necessary and this is only achieved through the full gamut of muscular movements available to the face. The face remaining uncovered is thus necessary. I believe this to be relatively objective and, as such, not subject to interpretation.

    Firstly, I would challenge the concept that many wear the niqab believing it to be a requirement of their faith. When saying it is religious, what they perhaps mean is that they are using it to solve the religious necessity to cover their hair. In that sense the niqab can answer that religious need, however, just as a computer does far more than allowing me to write a letter, the niqab also fulfils their cultural needs. As such, it is a cultural item that happens to also fulfil a religious need - just as a long tunic, for a man, would fulfil the needs of his religion - to be properly covered - but also, mostly, fulfils his cultural needs to have something, which he considers 'good looking'. One would not consider that tunic to be a religious item, but rather a cultural one.

    In any case, the fact that some people wear an item erroneously believing it to be a part of their faith does not make it a religious item, it simply makes them wrong. To take the pink plimsolls as an example again - if I was to wear them then would they be a religious item? No, they would be pink plimsolls. For something to be a religious item it is not good enough for someone to simply declare that they are - there must be something in their religious texts stating they are - otherwise their belief is unfounded.
     
  2. wozencl

    Hitman

    Joined: Jul 27, 2009

    Posts: 590

    Location: UK

    Of course but how are we to draw definite conclusions from a text that is full of ambiguity? It's easy for us to say that covering the face is detrimental to one's ability to communicate but many aspects of religion are restrictive and have no scientific basis.

    I don't agree with this for one simple reason, religion is not simply holy texts - it is far more. As an example there is no mention in the Bible of purgatory yet it's existence is part of Catholic doctrine. Are we to conclude that the concept of purgatory is not religious? Of course not.

    I believe most people here are, for the sake of brevity, using Islam and Muslim in a very broad sense.

    Cultures and religions shape one another and are perhaps so intertwined that trying to separate them, in the current context, may be foolish. For instance, I believe the veil that is now used to satisfy Hijab was worn by Christians in Asia Minor long before Islamic culture reached that area. Female genital mutilation was, if my memory serves me, a Bedouin tradition. These aspects of culture have been adopted and upheld by some parts Islam and, for me at least, can be described either as religious traditions with a cultural basis or cultural traditions with a religious basis. The fact remains that we are discussing Islam and Muslims generally and not any one particular version or person, for that reason any points about the Niqab should not be summarily dismissed as "cultural" and deemed not to be relevant. Posts in this very thread have demonstrated that what consitutes correct Muslim behaviour or dress is subjective and varies widly, that is what I mean by interpretation and I do not think that I have overstated it.

    Each of the practices mentioned are considered mandatory in at least one of the Islamic schools of religious law and therefore can be described as having, at the very least, some religous basis, for this reason they can be and should discussed here if they can be related to the topic of the thread.
     
  3. Neodite

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 10, 2008

    Posts: 2,570

    Location: Grendon

    Just thought id get something of my chest after reading other threads about immigration/youtube videos. And i didn't want to bump old threads

    All the people that are saying immigration in this country is not a problem just dont seem to understand that most things have to start from the bottom of the scale.

    So people are the lower scale (Low income familys, council estates, lower class people) are seeing immigration having a large effect on them, they see the numbers growing, they see more of them in there workplace to the point in some places where they outnumber british.

    People above this lower scale are blind from it all because it does not effect them, and you can say there is no problem all you like but that does not mean there aint one. As time goes by the only thing will happen is immigration will start to move up the ladder and it will get to a point where it will be too late to do anything about it.

    Myself, my partner and our 14month old child live in a council area, and over the time we are seeing more and more immigrants moving in, we go to the hospital for a scan or somthing might be wrong that we need to get checked out and we have to wait for hours and hours on end and all we see in the waiting room is immigrants, if there wasnt so many this wouldn't be a problem. I know people that work for the NHS and they say how overcrowded it is and in most part it's down to immigration, you have one that falls ill and a family of 20-30 will be there day and night taking up space and getting in the way.

    You can dig into me as much as you like, but the fact is i see what is is going on around me and it only looks to be getting worse, i just hope for the countrys sake that more people (middle and upperclass) will see it too before it's too late, there is only so much money/space/jobs to go around, its bad enough that alot of companies outsource to other parts of the world for price cutting withought more people always coming here for the jobs (And as i said it's the lowr payed jobs that see the force first, but it wont belong before thats not the case and it spreads higher.

    Now im sure i could go back to school, get a better job and move up in the world, but i simply dont want to, im happy with my job working 4 on 4 off, it means i get to see my partner, child and soon a second alot, and we get by well enough money wise thanks to living in a council flat so it dont cost all that much.

    Most people on these forums only see one side of the story, i think thats due to being against immigration seems to class you as a racist, and others here seem to be very well off, living in nice areas away from the growing immigration, but it wont be long before it starts effecting you too.

    Rant over, glad i got that off my chest :p now call me a racist, a scum, whatever you like, it wont change my views, i wont let media and a PC country chance my mind on what i think is going on
     
  4. thevet

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Nov 4, 2008

    Posts: 2,333

    Location: Earth :-)

    100% right,it will affect everyone eventually
     
  5. fishwad

    Associate

    Joined: Jul 12, 2009

    Posts: 86

    I agree that the mass immigration we have today in this country (both legal and illegal/illegitimate) is a negative thing for many reasons. I'd also agree that it is the 'lower classes' of society who are currently most affected, perhaps when the daughters of the more wealthy among our society are the ones being groomed for unlawful marriages etc then people will actually begin to question whether they are right to have generalised the working classes and those actively pro-nationalist as mostly racist bigots using immigration as an excuse for violence etc.

    Personally (assuming the country could support it) I would have no problem with immigration on a large scale. However, and, unfortunately; It appears that more often than not many immigrants are divisive. An example of what I mean: 'How many times have we heard about companies forced to monitor the number of employees they have from ethnic minorites and how they are 'encouraged' ie: pressured into making sure they have a specific proportion? Quite a few times I'd say we have all heard this and if you haven't - what dark corner have you been hiding in? In stark contrast - how many Idian - Chinese - Asian owned restaurants have you been to where 'all' employees are not of british descent? I seen many, and they're not all just small family run businesses. I'd say the same goes for many taxi firms as well.

    I am certainly not racist, bigoted or a white supremiscist by any stretch of the imagination. I think that a multicural society is vibrant, full of energy and should be goal we aspire to achieving in the correct way. However, I DO NOT think that the goal of a truly multicultural society should be sought over and above the safety of the people, allowing certain cultures to become a danger to the rights and freedoms we rightly expect in this country. I've done quite a bit of travelling in my life to many countries and I can say this one thing for sure:
    No matter how well meaning or how you seek to justify it, if you allow certain cultures to flourish unchallenged in this country then the rights and justices we expect will become replaced by cultural laws that do not need to be passed by parliament because they do not operate within the sight of our legal system.

    Some simple examples:

    The banning in some schools of the traditional nativity plays in case they offend. . . (not written into law but has been brought about via cultural pressure)

    The growing Halal only pressure - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3160175.ece

    Schools pressures into closing because of non-attendance during islamic holidays - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/5188387/Schools-to-close-on-Muslim-holidays-in-order-to-cut-absence-rates.html (Not very good for the the native british kids exam results - with the immigrant population increasing I wonder how many schools will go this way)

    There are many more. Not to mention the fact that Muslims populations (we've all seen it) settle in an area and dominate it totally again adding to social unrest, distrust etc. Within these areas they follow their cultural laws virtually unchallenged. They get the vote as well and who do you think they will vote for. Make your own minds up but please consider these articles/videos: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/9202647/how_the_government_pays_muslims_to_vote_labour/, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lWABGwFJn0, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9WbSCsi1eU

    As I said I am NOT racist or bigoted. I simply try to look at the FACTS and WHAT IS happening. Words are cheap, actions can be bought - The Facts are there to be seen, all you have to do is look and understand what is infront of you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  6. Neodite

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 10, 2008

    Posts: 2,570

    Location: Grendon

    What else i have seen alot off, is immigrant youths that seem to be taking after our chavs we have and hate.

    Is it not bad enough that we have to deal with our own thugs and chavs that we have to add other countrys to the list to hate too.

    Walking to the park with my daughter and you have a group of white lads taking drugs and drinking beer and being a pain in the ass, get round the corner and there is a group of pakastani lads doing the same thing.....

    It's just adding to the numbers.

    Same as we carn't sort out benifits for brits (The ones that take advantage of it and sponge of it) we have other people comming and doing the same)

    How bad does it have to get for it to be enough?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  7. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,216

    See, at least they are making the effort to intergrate properly into British Culture. :D
     
  8. Briton

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 8, 2006

    Posts: 1,426

    Cultural pressure my Aunt Fanny. Christianity was imposed on the people of this country and that is why it's superstitions and rituals hold sway.

    The way to fight it is not to give preference to one Middle Eastern religion over another but to have a truly secular society.
     
  9. Neodite

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 10, 2008

    Posts: 2,570

    Location: Grendon

    Ok, you win that one haha
     
  10. fishwad

    Associate

    Joined: Jul 12, 2009

    Posts: 86

    I agree a truly secular society is the right goal. Question though for you - you mentioned a fight . . . . what or who are you fighting?

    I doubt that you could say Islam is only a Middle-Eastern religion, roots maybe, but lets tell it the way it is, Islam has and is spreading rapidly across the world. Christianity was imposed and I think that this country at least had learnt from that mistake, hence the seperation of church from the state etc, however, it appears that those lessons are being forgotten in the face of the Muslim population explosion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  11. Briton

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 8, 2006

    Posts: 1,426

    I suppose in that context I was referring to fighting any influence Islam may try and have on our society.
     
  12. fishwad

    Associate

    Joined: Jul 12, 2009

    Posts: 86

    I'm not beyond being wrong, but what caused it if not pressure from another culture/religion to do so?
     
  13. Briton

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 8, 2006

    Posts: 1,426

    Sorry I think I read you wrong but I think you should take some of the blame. ;)

    I thought you were saying that the Nativity plays existed because of cultural pressure. :o

    I hope they do disappear from state schools through cultural pressure but not because they offend someone of another belief system.
     
  14. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,216

    Pressure from a secular part of society that are bored to tears watching the same old nativity year after year? Pressure from teachers that, after 20 years teaching kids, are sick to death of an increasingly outdated nativity even in non muslim areas?
     
  15. Neodite

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 10, 2008

    Posts: 2,570

    Location: Grendon

    It is, but you will find most the time it's people "thinking" they are doing right sticking up for muslims or whoever else, so they are as much to blame than the people from differant culture/religion that find it offensive.
     
  16. Neodite

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 10, 2008

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    Location: Grendon

    I wouldn't say it's the teachers, nativitys are like a tradition to go watch and be proud of your child playing a donkey :D
     
  17. fishwad

    Associate

    Joined: Jul 12, 2009

    Posts: 86

    I may be the odd one out here but ALL the parents I know who have kids in school absolutely love to see their kids up on stage dressed as mary or the wise men etc . . . sorry I just don't agree with that take on it at all. IF I were a teacher I'd imagine I'd probably enjoy the opportunity to put the chalk down for a while over the festive period. Are there any teachers here with an opinion?
     
  18. fishwad

    Associate

    Joined: Jul 12, 2009

    Posts: 86

    Could be do-gooders I suppose, but that's still cultural pressure isn't it. Even if the do-gooders are in denial about it.
     
  19. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,216

    My daughter has just started school (she is 4) there is a limit to how many times I am going to find her dressed as "Star number 6" interesting. Even the many years ago I was in school we didn't do the nativity every year and that was in an almost 100% white area.

    Sadly the headline "School not putting on nativity because it is boring" doesn't sell as many papers.
     
  20. Neodite

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 10, 2008

    Posts: 2,570

    Location: Grendon

    It always comes down to cultural pressure, we are a nation that is too scared too offend, so are willing to change to suit others