Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Turn · 4 Apr 2022 at 10:58

*Ukraine Finance Minister Says: We Don’t Want to Create Debt Burden That Will Weigh on Economy After War
*Spanish Authorities Detain Super Yacht Suspected to Belong to a Russian Oligarch in Mallorca, Police Say — RTRS
https://financialpost.com/pmn/busin...on-of-monthly-oil-and-gas-output-data-sources

*Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov Has Described the Situation in the Ukrainian Town of Bucha As a Fake Attack, — TASS.
*Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Moscow Will Demand That UK Fulfill Its Responsibilities As U.N. Security Council Chair — TASS
https://tass.ru/politika/14272727

*A Russian analytical unit affiliated with the Energy Ministry did not publish monthly oil and gas output data on April 2, according to two clients, the first delay in years amid reports of a production decline. — RTRS
*Russia’s March Oil Production at 46.57 Mln Tonnes — Interfax.
*Russia Boosts 1q Oil Production to 135.52m Tons — Interfax.

Mr Jack · 4 Apr 2022 at 10:58

Roar87 said:
So you're wanting NATO planes to shoot down Russian planes if they go into West Ukraine?

Putin won't risk it. The absolute worst case for Putin is that NATO actually gets involved. But, yes, we should threaten Russia and then follow through with maximum prejudice if he dares to cross our lines.

If we did that then why would Russia not feel able to attack NATO air bases launching those air patrols with cruise missiles? Then if they did that, Russia has launched an attack on a NATO member state invoking article 5, so suddenly NATO is at war with Russia. You're happy with that outcome? NATO in a total war state with Russia, both nuclear armed powers, potentially escalating into a strategic nuclear exchange leading to the deaths of 1 billion people according to a US study, in defense of a non-NATO member in Ukraine who are currently pushing back Russia and have held Kyiv simply with our support

So we just sit back and let genocide occur because of the fanciful idea that Putin is going to escalate into a nuclear war? No, Russia won't launch nukes unless it is actually invaded, or we launch first. Entering the war in Ukraine and driving Russia out of the country (or, more likely, into a rapid surrender) isn't going to trigger a nuclear war.

Bar · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:02

There appears to have always been an unwrriten rule of no direct conflict between Russia / China and the West. Proxies are fair game as we have seen over the last 50 years but direct conflict I dont believe has happened. Sadly it means those proxies suffer the most and they suffer time and time again.

footman · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:10

chrismscotland said:
Sadly we both know that either Russia or China will veto - the UN in its current form is a waste of resources

You surely mean that UN Security Council is unable to function due to the power of veto.
The UN has many other useful functions around the world, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
https://www.un.org/en/our-work

mburn_83 · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:13

NATO does not need to get involved at this stage imo - We should continue “selling”weapons to Ukraine and potentially support the transfer of old soviet kit from willing allies.

If the massacres step up to genocide - then it is inevitable that we get involved more directly.

NickK · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:14

0007 said:
*Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov Has Described the Situation in the Ukrainian Town of Bucha As a Fake Attack, — TASS.
*Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Moscow Will Demand That UK Fulfill Its Responsibilities As U.N. Security Council Chair — TASS
https://tass.ru/politika/14272727

The Security Council takes the lead in determining the existence of a threat to the peace or act of aggression. It calls upon the parties to a dispute to settle it by peaceful means and recommends methods of adjustment or terms of settlement.

UK "Yes you are the aggressor and we call on you to return all lands and individuals back to Ukraine".

Turn · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:24

Past 2hrs:
— Bloomberg (CET Time)

*Truss to Call for Tougher Sanctions

*Deutsche Bank CEO Sees Recession if Energy Imports Sanctioned

*More Sites in Ukraine’s West and East Targeted

*Germany ‘Working Every Day’ to Cut Russian Energy Reliance

*Kremlin ‘Categorically Denies’ Bucha Allegations

*Global Outcry at Civilian Killings Near Kyiv As Fighting Shifts East — RTRS
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...mes-after-bodies-found-bound-shot-2022-04-04/

chrismscotland · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:41

footman said:
You surely mean that UN Security Council is unable to function due to the power of veto.
The UN has many other useful functions around the world, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
https://www.un.org/en/our-work

No your correct I was referring to the Security Council - as you say there are plenty of other functions, etc they do that seem to work - but the veto feels like an outdated system.
There are plenty of other nations militarily more powerful now than the UK, why should we have a permanent veto?

Frankly I think the Sec Council should be rotated fully rather than just some members.

alchal · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:47

chrismscotland said:
No your correct I was referring to the Security Council - as you say there are plenty of other functions, etc they do that seem to work - but the veto feels like an outdated system.
There are plenty of other nations militarily more powerful now than the UK, why should we have a permanent veto?

Frankly I think the Sec Council should be rotated fully rather than just some members.

Who are those nations?

Mik3 · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:52

godinman said:
Playing devils advocate here, are you actually able to refute those allegations?

The Russians claim it's all staged which is nonsense, there's 100's if not 1000's of eyewitnesses and the bodies have been left in the same place for several days now with journalists coming in and out taking images and video, in the latest video it's snowing, I think they're leaving the bodies for forensic teams to investigate the scene. The only other option is the Ukrainians murdered them all and everyone is lying. We have already seen dozens of videos and images of Russians murdering civilians and levelling cities, I have no doubt they did it and they might have been ordered from the top to terrorise civilians to break their will to resist. Accounts of similar atrocities in other towns coming out now as well, someone in this thread said a few days ago that this is probably happening all over Ukraine, it looks like they were right.

Turn · 4 Apr 2022 at 11:56

*Governor of Ukraine’s Sumy Region: Russian Troops No Longer Occupy Any Settlements in Region

*Italy’s Foreign Min. Maio: Italy Will Not Veto Any Sanctions Against Russia’s Gas.
*Austria Won’t Back EU Embargo on Russian Gas — Schallenberg

Custor · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:00

Or that the civilians died in the fighting for the town.
Or that they were armed and were legitimate combatants - as per previous woot posts about giving guns to civilians.
Or were spying, aiding the Ukrainian forces.

to say that the only two alternatives for every death is staged or murder in a war is daft. 100,000 died in Iraq. They’re not staged or murdered either.

andybird123 · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:05

Custor said:
Or that the civilians died in the fighting for the town.
Or that they were armed and were legitimate combatants - as per previous woot posts about giving guns to civilians.
Or were spying, aiding the Ukrainian forces.

to say that the only two alternatives for every death is staged or murder in a war is daft. 100,000 died in Iraq. They’re not staged or murdered either.

Even for the current volunteers at actual army barracks, they have like 1 gun for 20 people, so how do you think it is all these guys in tiny villages were armed and therefore legitimate combatants?
I'm sure the guy riding his bicycle looked well sus. Bicycles famously look exactly like NLAWs, they both have a tube, right?

Mr Jack · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:08

chrismscotland said:
No your correct I was referring to the Security Council - as you say there are plenty of other functions, etc they do that seem to work - but the veto feels like an outdated system.
There are plenty of other nations militarily more powerful now than the UK, why should we have a permanent veto?

There's not plenty of other nations more militarily powerful than the UK that aren't security council members, depending on how you choose to measure it there's at most 3. I think the British are too fond of underplaying how significant a global country Britain still is: we're a global economic, cultural, diplomatic, and military powerhouse. I think the veto should be softened, so that single permanent members can be outvoted by the rest, but I think your proposal that:

Frankly I think the Sec Council should be rotated fully rather than just some members.

Doesn't work. Ultimately the UN Security Council depends on the actions of member nations to actually do anything, it needs the most significant powers around the world to agree or it's nothing more than a talking shop. The US isn't going to listen to Council instructions it would have veto'd anyway, neither are any of the other permanent members. A randomly chosen collection of countries don't have the de facto authority to make their voice listened to. The Permanent members, as a group, do.

Mr Jack · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:10

Custor said:
Or that the civilians died in the fighting for the town.
Or that they were armed and were legitimate combatants - as per previous woot posts about giving guns to civilians.
Or were spying, aiding the Ukrainian forces.

None of this explains shooting people with their hands tied in the back of the head, or shooting an unarmed man on a bike, or the widespread evidence of torture and rape of children.

Turn · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:11

*According to the Spokesman for UK Prime Minister Johnson, The PM Is Eager to Go Beyond the Types of Military Aid Already Provided to Ukraine.
*According to the Spokesman for UK Prime Minister Johnson, The PM Will Do Everything Possible to Provide Ukraine With the Military Assistance It Requires.
*According to the Spokesman for UK Prime Minister Johnson, We Should All Be Moving As Quickly As Possible to Eliminate Russian Oil and Gas.
*According to the Spokesman for UK Prime Minister Johnson, There Is More We and Our Allies Can Do on Sanctions, Including a Swift Payment System.

*U.S to Seek Russia’s Suspension From U.N. Human Rights Council — U.S. Envoy to U.N.

RobHu · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:14

Custor said:
Or that the civilians died in the fighting for the town.
Or that they were armed and were legitimate combatants - as per previous woot posts about giving guns to civilians.
Or were spying, aiding the Ukrainian forces.

to say that the only two alternatives for every death is staged or murder in a war is daft. 100,000 died in Iraq. They’re not staged or murdered either.

Shooting people in the back of the head whilst they are tied up is murder even if they were spies/combatants/whatever.

Freddie1980 · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:19

https://liveuamap.com/

Well it looks like the Russian's have now given up on Summy as well which allows the Ukrainian army to move east towards Kharkiv. Judging by the rapid dispersal of Russia forces in the north and the evacuation of civilians in the Lukansk region it looks like there is going to be a big push in the Donbass in the coming days.

Custor · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:24

RobHu said:
Shooting people in the back of the head whilst they are tied up is murder even if they were spies/combatants/whatever.

Pretty much yep it is. If they are all tied up or killed for no reason it is murder.
Not every corpse is an execution though. Horrific for those involved though still.
Soldiers fighting have less inclination to make the distinction of a court case when they are killing and being killed.
Has been the case. Will always be the case.
Not sanitising war. War is **** and we should remind ourselves if that when we post our line in the sand to other countries.

Turn · 4 Apr 2022 at 12:25

0007 said:
*Italy’s Foreign Min. Maio: Italy Will Not Veto Any Sanctions Against Russia’s Gas.
*Austria Won’t Back EU Embargo on Russian Gas — Schallenberg

— Bloomberg (CET Time)

*Italy Won’t Veto Sanctions on Russian Gas

*Russia Energy Ban Wouldn’t Cripple Europe

*Austria Won’t Support A Russian Gas Embargo

*Russia Plans to Develop Directional Energy Weapons — IFX
New Russian State Armaments Program To Be Aimed At Creating Directed-energy Weapons, Kinetic Weapons, Control Systems Using AI — Deputy PM Borisov