Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Hook]

Without direct help from other countries Ukraine is going to fall anyway. The thought that they can beat Russia might be a noble one, but ultimately it's going to cost a lot people their lives and destroy the country.
I don't think an outright fight is the way to play this personally, who knows how much longer Putin is going to be around anyway, if a new leader is brought into power in Russia they might take an entirely different view to Ukraine if there is enough dissent from the people there.

What is your opinion regarding all the other neighbouring countries of Russia btw, which should surrender to Russia asap?

 

[Turn]

What is your opinion regarding all the other neighbouring countries of Russia btw, which should surrender to Russia asap?

China

*China State Energy Firms in Talks for Shell’s Russian LNG Stake
*Italian Energy Regulatory Agency: Russia's Natural Gas Supply To Europe May Stop In May

*Russian Foreign Ministry: Two British Fighters Captured in Ukraine’s Mariupol Are Being Fed and Watered and Given Necessary Help
*Russian Foreign Ministry: Calls On Britain To Stop Supplying Arms To Ukraine

*Russian Central Bank Governor Nabiullina: Russia Needs To Avoid Economic Self-Isolation
*Russian Central Bank Governor Nabiullina: It Is Realistic To Approach The Inflation Target Of 4% In 2024 And We Are Prepared To Do So Smoothly
*Russian Central Bank Governor Nabiullina: Russia Will Make Real Settlements With Digital Rouble In 2023
*Russian Central Bank Governor Nabiullina: We Expect That The Digital Rouble Will Be Used In International Transactions

*UK's Prime Minister Johnson: Hoping To Complete Another Free Trade Agreement With India By The End Of This Year
*UK's Prime Minister Johnson: India And UK Have Shared Anxieties About Autocracies In The World

Spoiler: More here (Reuters Article)

 

[Rroff]

Regarding Putin's orders to siege rather than storm the Azovstal plant - wonder if that is to either get them to let their guard down or to try and draw Ukrainian forces into an effort to relieve them.

 

[Hagar]

Without direct help from other countries Ukraine is going to fall anyway. The thought that they can beat Russia might be a noble one, but ultimately it's going to cost a lot people their lives and destroy the country.

I don't think an outright fight is the way to play this personally, who knows how much longer Putin is going to be around anyway, if a new leader is brought into power in Russia they might take an entirely different view to Ukraine if there is enough dissent from the people there.

It took over 40 years for the Soviet satellite states and Eastern Germany to recover their independance. Removing a few thousand occupying troops is easier than removing a government imposed by Russia.
In addition supplying an insurgency enough to make a difference becomes much harder and the countries doing so could be called terrorists and warmongers for attacking a sovereign power in its own territory.

 

[Shamikebab]

Not to mention the morale impact of surrendering your country to the defending forces.

 

[RoboCod]

Without direct help from other countries Ukraine is going to fall anyway. The thought that they can beat Russia might be a noble one, but ultimately it's going to cost a lot people their lives and destroy the country.

I don't think an outright fight is the way to play this personally, who knows how much longer Putin is going to be around anyway, if a new leader is brought into power in Russia they might take an entirely different view to Ukraine if there is enough dissent from the people there.

If it was the UK, and your family was facing annihilation or at best a life of destitution, what would you do? Bend over and take it, or fight?

 

[Washout]

That sort of thing is taking place regardless though. If Ukraine fell to Russian hands they couldn't realistically spread their troops all across the country and it would be very hard to counter sporadic fighting. At least that way innocent civilians wouldn't have been displaced from their homes, a lot of which are now destroyed and many people wouldn't have lost their lives.

I think Ukraine has been manipulated and encouraged by the West to a degree to mount an all out fight so the West can guage Russia's military might, but in truth it's not in Ukraine's best interest.

I'd say Ukraine ceasing to exist as a country is also not in Ukraine's best interest.
I'd rather take my chances with the standing army and government that seems to be holding it's own at the moment than having to rely on an insurgency that would likely last years, if not decades. An insurgency that will see daily bombings and killings all over the country, rather than on the current front lines, with reprisals also being equally harsh. Meanwhile freedoms will be curbed and eroded every single day as you're subjected to a complete police state with no say or tolerance to dissent.

 

[PlacidCasual]

@andybird123 Thx for making the effort for a thought out reply.

 

[Turn]

*Russia Declares Persona Non Grata All Employees of Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian Consulates to Be Closed in the Country
*Russia Says It Is Closing Latvia’s Consulates in St Petersburg And Pskov
*Russia Says It’s Also Closing Estonia’s and Lithuania’s Consulate Generals in St Petersburg

*Volodin, Chairman Of The Russian State Duma: No One Took Russia's Gold And Foreign Exchange Reserves, Some Of Which Have Been Frozen, We Will Not Only Take Them Back, But Also Earn Interest And Punish Those Who Made The Decision
*Alekperov resigns as president of Russia's Lukoil — RTRS

 

[sprite1275]

So how's this going to go? Slowly but surely Russia are just going to take Ukraine. Then what? Is it not best to give Ukraine all the top fire power to start an offense? Loads of missiles, artillery? Sink the rest of their ships and start firing into Russia. Otherwise Russia will always do what they want.

 

[Turn]

*Russian Presidential Press Secretary Peskov: Russia-Ukraine Talks Are Continuing
*Russian Presidential Press Secretary Peskov: Still Waiting For a Response to Its Latest Proposals From Ukraine
*Kremlin, Responding to Zelenskiy’s Idea to Arrange a Prisoner Exchange Involving Ukrainian Forces in Mariupol’s Azovstal, Says They Have the Possibility to Lay Down Their Weapons and Leave Via Safe Corridors
*Russian Presidential Press Secretary Peskov: Puzzled by Zelenskiy Saying He Hasn’t Seen Latest Russian Proposals

*Hungary PM Aide: Hungary Needs Details From EU Before Deciding On Russia Energy Sanctions — Reuters
*Estonia’s Foreign Minister Liimets: The Next EU Sanctions Package on Russia Must Include Measures on Energy Carriers, Both Gas And Oil

*UK: It Has Added 26 New Designations Under The Russia Regime
*UK’s Latest Sanctions Include Russian Military Figures, Business Executives
*UK's Latest Russia Sanctions Include Asset Freezes On Defence Companies

Spoiler: *Central Bank (ECB's Lagarde)

*European Central Bank Governor Lagarde: War Has Led to Rising Uncertainty
*European Central Bank Governor Lagarde: Ample Policy Support Remains in Place
*European Central Bank Governor Lagarde: Sees Further Inflation Pressure From Supply Bottlenecks
*European Central Bank Governor Lagarde: European Central Bank Is Carefully Monitoring Risks to Inflation Outlook
*European Central Bank Governor Lagarde: Policy Will Depend on the Incoming Data
*European Central Bank Governor Lagarde: War Spillovers May Affect Euro Area Financial Markets

 

[Mr Jack]

Given the sheer scale of destruction in Ukraine that the Russians have caused, is it that outrageous to suggest that Ukraine would have been better off surrendering at the beginning and instead operating a counter insurgency?

Russia's aim is to crush Ukraine; Putin does not wish to allow a prosperous successful, free, and democratic country with close ties to the Russian people to exist on their border. There would not simply have been a new puppet government and carry on regardless, quite apart from the likelyhood of massive, large scale purges of people considered undesirable by the Russians, those left untouched would look forward to a much less prosperous future with far less liberty. Compare the progress of Romania and Ukraine over the last two decades, in '92 Ukraine and Romania had pretty similar GDP per capita - Ukraine a little more - by the time of the first Russian invasion, Romania's GDP per capita was over three times higher, at the time of this current invasion it was four times higher. You see same thing in Poland and other former Soviet countries that joined the west. The Western-looking future the Ukrainian people want, voted for, and even fought for in the Revolution of Dignity isn't some vague hope, it's the realistic promise of a better life for everyone. The contrast with the future Russia wants for the country couldn't be starker.

 

[Harlequin]

That line of thinking leads to our parents/grandparents all having never stood up to Hitler and us all living in a world where a dictator mass executes anyone who he doesn't like. Most of us think we should all be doing much more to help Ukraine, not that Ukraine should have rolled over from the outset.

The longer Putin is in power and actually in control, the higher the chance the next person will be just as bad. You don't change things by capitulating. In hindsight the west should have stood up to Putin much sooner, not exacerbate past mistakes by repeating them.

Crimea was the moment Putin realised the West would do nothing

 

[SPG]

We are not giving them the top firepower. Its hand me downs and End of Shelf life stock. As for giving think again their is always a price..... Lets hope Germany is at the back of the line when it comes to re-building what is left. But it wont, it will be rubbing its clean hands with glee as its another country in the pocket for them doing or giving very little.

Ukraine as we know it will be split somehow. Then Russia will face a wall that can go no further another populace under the boot that they will lose control of in another 20 years with Russia set back another 30.

 

[Turn]

*Ukrainian Presidential Adviser: Russia Failed To Make Any Gains On Main Fronts Over Past 24 Hours
*Ukrainian Presidential Adviser: Russia Understands It Cannot Take Azovstal By Force
*Ukrainian Presidential Adviser: Russia Preparing To Hold A Referendum On Establishing "People's Republic" In Kherson Region

*Biden will provide an update on Russia and Ukraine at 14:45 BST

*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: There Are No Taboos For Us With Regard To Weapons And Heavy Weaponry Ukraine Needs
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: We Are Backfilling Donations Of Old Soviet Kit Made By Allies
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock, Asked About Marder And Leopard Tank Deliveries, Says We Are Examining What Extra Maintenance Would Be Needed For Them To Be Used On The Ground In Ukraine
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: German Army Itself Faces Kit Shortages For Its Current Missions

*Russian Lower House Of Parliament Votes In Favour Of Reappointment Of Elvira Nabiullina As Central Bank Governor
*Russia Duma Confirms Central Banker Nabiullina for Third Term

 

[Rroff]

*Ukrainian Presidential Adviser: Russia Failed To Make Any Gains On Main Fronts Over Past 24 Hours

Russia not really trying to make gains currently - they've reset to their standard doctrine and using artillery along the front while building up forces/supplies for more concentrated pushes.

 

[Lima]

Regarding Putin's orders to siege rather than storm the Azovstal plant - wonder if that is to either get them to let their guard down or to try and draw Ukrainian forces into an effort to relieve them.

isnt it obviously to starve them? He has realised he doesn’t need to lose a load of Russian soldiers fighting in the factory, he has just blocked them in so nothing can get in or out. Either 2,000 odd soldiers plus civilians are going to starve or dehydrate to death very soon or they will need to exit the plant and surrender. First very smart move by putin in 2 months.

 

[Rroff]

isnt it obviously to starve them? He has realised he doesn’t need to lose a load of Russian soldiers fighting in the factory, he has just blocked them in so nothing can get in or out. Either 2,000 odd soldiers plus civilians are going to starve or dehydrate to death very soon or they will need to exit the plant and surrender. First very smart move by putin in 2 months.

I'm not sure it is that simple, obviously that works as well.

By all reports, though not sure if it is true, they built up a lot of supplies of food, water and ammo in the passages under the plant in anticipation of something like this.

 

[Harlequin]

We are not giving them the top firepower. Its hand me downs and End of Shelf life stock. As for giving think again their is always a price..... Lets hope Germany is at the back of the line when it comes to re-building what is left. But it wont, it will be rubbing its clean hands with glee as its another country in the pocket for them doing or giving very little.

Ukraine as we know it will be split somehow. Then Russia will face a wall that can go no further another populace under the boot that they will lose control of in another 20 years with Russia set back another 30.

NLAW is the current short range anti armour weapon of the British Army
Martlet is still entering service - and the UK sent a load to Ukraine (and it has been used in the anti air role)
StarStreak has been used in Ukraine (current manpad system)

 

[Mrwong]

isnt it obviously to starve them? He has realised he doesn’t need to lose a load of Russian soldiers fighting in the factory, he has just blocked them in so nothing can get in or out. Either 2,000 odd soldiers plus civilians are going to starve or dehydrate to death very soon or they will need to exit the plant and surrender. First very smart move by putin in 2 months.

If the Ukrainians play it right they could demoralise the Russian troops. Hit them when they least expect it, when they have there guard down in a week or so if the Ukrainians have months worth of supplies.