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US Military Dead

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by clv101, Jan 18, 2006.

  1. aztechnology

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 12, 2004

    Posts: 2,503

    Location: Oop North

    I'm not sure which I would rather win, you'd have to form some equality relationship out of human life and freedom of political will. I'm sure many Vietnamese mothers and children may think the cost was too high.
     
  2. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

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    Location: Midlands

    You think the Americans secured oil supplies to help the Iraqis? :) Why would they spend a trillion dollars (estimated) in a war to help the Iraqis when they are so desparate for oil themselves? And yes, it might be 6% now, but the middle east is where the biggest reserves are, so it will be a lot higher than 6% over the coming years.
     
  3. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

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    Yes, children are still being born in vietnam with terrible birth defects due to Agent Orange that was used in the vietnam war. It was developed by Monsanto actually, I discovered the other day.
     
  4. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,412

    Location: In the Gym

    Look Here that is the word i am getting at, people insinuate Iraq was just fine and dandy without a care in the world before America showed up. Not that they have said it somewhere just that how they go about casting the blame as such.

    its the insurgency that is holding back the development infrastructure, were it not for Terrorists blowing up lines of would-be policemen, Iraqis would have a better chance of being stabilised, as it is with this fact in mind, many do not want to queue in open streets to have the bloke standing behind you flick a switch.

    Iraq ruined itself, as we've already discussed Saddam was $400billion+ in debt before Gulf War 1, he invaded Kuwait because of this debt, in an attempt to grab its oil fields (which they burned when they retreated).

    No but the Insurgents are killing a lot more civilians than America are, are they not?

    >| Raoh |<
     
  5. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,412

    Location: In the Gym

    they are trying out a scheme to allow Iraqis to make profits from the oil, its better than what Saddam had in stall for it, with every cent going into his and his cronies back pockets!

    >| Raoh |<
     
  6. aztechnology

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 12, 2004

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    This is not a fair or particularly true statement, the emphasis is all wrong. The USA certainly has not helped Irag develop into a modern prosperous nation, but much of the blame for Irag must be laid at the feet of Saddam and those who supported him. the USA had little to do with 8 years of war with Iran (apart from making money selling him stuff) which basically bankrupt his country, or with the invasion of Kuwait and his attempt to gain more control over shared oilfields that Kuwait where exploiting to their advantage, or with Saddams refusal to comply with international demands after GW1. Blaming Iraq's troubles on the west wanting oil is a simplistic view, the situation in Iraq over the last century is complex and involved and oil does play a major part (in 1914 Basra was a refueling point for the Royal Navy from a pipeline in Iran, I don't think oil in Iraq was yet being expolited in 1914), but many of the problems come down to "people" problems (one set of people being unhappy with how things turn out and trying to do soemthing about it... others - read colonial powers - attempting to make gains where they should have perhaps taken longer to sort things out).

    We have little to go on that says without western interference thing would have been any easier. I've said in other discussions that if the US wanted cheap oil from Iraq they seem to be paying an awfull lot for it, and i say it again here. Both GW1 and GW2 are far more complex issues than we tend to make out, and I make no excuses for the powers that seem to be capable of mishandling and underestimating anything they get involved with, but to say it's all about oil (obviously) is just not correct.
     
  7. aztechnology

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 12, 2004

    Posts: 2,503

    Location: Oop North

    they where not solely responsible (Dow chemicals and 6 other manufacturers made it as well), but they had a class action served against them in Nov 2004. - they had already paid out $180 million in 1984 (all 8 manufacturers). To me though you can't actually hold monsanto responsible, they where "required" to provide the stuff by the US government and the the US government dropped it all over Vietnam so the responsibilty must lie there. (though I suppose that it must be heavily dependant on the advice given by the Chemical companies to the US govt.)
     
  8. theleg

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

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    Location: UK

    Since when did they lose the war? :ugh:
     
  9. aztechnology

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 12, 2004

    Posts: 2,503

    Location: Oop North

    I would like to believe this, but to be honest I really don't. It sounds a lot like spin to me.

    The US/World wants and needs a stable supply of oil, they see that the best way to do this is to have stable countries at the points of origin. GW2 has been a misguided attempt to ensure that, right now they/we are in over out heads, I honestly think that we are coming to a point where we are ready to cut and run, someone just needs an exit strategy that will work, a bit like have a few elections, install an "Iraqi Security Force", which can be said to be policing just as badly as everyone else then we can get out. What puzzles be is if insurgents truly want the west out of Iraq, all they need to do is shut up shop (stop insurging) for a few months and the west will be gone a few months later. Whenever we get out, in 10 months or 10 years, I'm sure that civil war will follow shortly.
     
  10. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

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    i agree that if western troops left now there would be a massive culling, pepetrated by the insurgents who themselves would install their own government and it'll become like another Afghanistan

    >| Raoh |<
     
  11. Visage

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Jan 13, 2005

    Posts: 10,708

    Clearly when America bomb people they use fluffy bunny bombs that spray flowers on their intended targets, wheras when the insurgents bomb people they use NASTY EXPLOSIVE bombs.

    Isnt that right, RaohNS?
     
  12. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

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    sarcasm:

    actually they grow into mushrooms :rolleyes: think about it

    /sarcasm

    at least America when they drop bombs they are targetting the very people that are killing and maiming random individuals

    I highly doubt America would be given as much slack if they went and bombed a street full of people, there are too many people saying its all the Americans fault for death, rather than using a degree of brainpower and saying wait it isnt the Americans that are blowing us up but them gits from Iran and Syria!

    >| Raoh |<
     
  13. @if ®afiq

    Soldato

    Joined: May 3, 2003

    Posts: 6,080

    Do you even know anything about the past and even current history of the US foreign policies? They have killed, both directly and covertly, probably a bazzilion more people than all the murderous Arabs combined. Yet they are still the bad guys???:confused:
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2006
  14. Stiff_Cookie

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

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    Location: Abilene, Texas

    I wouldnt go that far! Arabs do not have a great reputation for being peace-loving people and when your thowing out numbers like a bazzilion it doesnt envoke much confidence that you know what your talking about.

    No Arabs are not the bad guys. However, the ones that strap explosives to themselves and sit at bus stops, in cafes or in line for a job before detonating are bad people.

    The US spends millions of dollars a year developing weapons designed to reduce collateral damage. We have bombs that can be placed in a particular window of a car parked in a full parking lot. The enemy AIMS for killing as many people as they can.

    When the US does accidently kill innocent people we compensate for the lose. No, we are not bring the lost loved one from the dead but the money we give the famiy does help.

    The bad guys are clearly the people the US is fighting.
     
  15. B&W

    Soldato

    Joined: Oct 3, 2003

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    I think people should distinguish between the two different groups in iraq who are resisting american rule.

    1. Sunni iraqis. the last two pentagon reports have both said ( latest one was around dec of last year) that over 90% of the enemy fighters it faces are iraqis. im not gonna say these guys are angels but they have a bit more restraint and decency then the foreign extremists, mainly they dont hate the shia as much as the nutters do and dont plant bombs for the sole purpose of killin civvies. their agenda is more or less nationalist.



    2. The foreign nutters who dont give a damn about the iraqis and will do more or less anything to achieve their aims. 99.9% are sunni extremists and have nothin to do with iran whatsoever.

    true the iranians do supply stuff to the shia militias, but theyre level of resistance is tiny compared to the overall picture.

    as for syria, their intentions are obvious but even if they did more to prevent foreigners into iraq it wouldnt solve anything. theyd still find a way in. for arguments sakes lets just say they dont find a way in, it still wouldnt stop the resistance which is mainly iraqi.

    You will never get stability in iraq by blamin syria and iran for all the problems.

    the main problem is internal not external.

    May I also point out that sometimes u hear on the news stuff like "bomb targets mourners at funeral".

    most of the time all u get on the news is how many people died and the assosciated video.

    sometimes these bombs target members of the iraqi military or government who are otherwise harder to get.

    doesnt make it right, but u can at least understand why some of it is done.
     
  16. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

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    Location: In the Gym

    I do know about the past and present US foreign policy. They have killed yes, the Americans have not at all killed more people than the Arabs, in fact Arabs kill more of each other in one country than in any 3 major countries i'd hazard, deaths in Iraq arent caused by Coalition troops shooting Iraqi's but by Arabs blowing Arabs apart!

    Arabs are the bad guys in this situation, in fact i dont know a single Arab that likes America unless they have black gold

    >| Raoh |<
     
  17. @if ®afiq

    Soldato

    Joined: May 3, 2003

    Posts: 6,080

    OK, the "bazillion" thing was not to be taken in the literal sense. But you just have to look at the number of conflicts that the Arabs have fought in the last 50 years - that were not either instigated or supported by the US/West, and compare that with the number of conflicts the US has had a hand in, both directly and indirectly. Even a child could tell you where most of the aggression is coming from. Unfortunatly, this little fact is either just glossed over or ignored as it does not fit the image that the US is trying to portray.

    The overwhelming majority of countires fear the US more than the Arabs as they have been on the receiving end, yet the world must still fear this all-powerful Arab. That, I just canot understand.

    There we go again, your fear of the suicide bombings is so our of proportion that it begs the question how it does so? Compare the number of suicide bombings and there casualties in the last 30 years with US missile strikes and their casualties. The suicide bombings pale in complete comparison - the only difference being that the victims of suicide bombings look more like "us" than do the victims of US aggression.

    Ask anyone, not in the US, what they fear more - the crazy Arab or the out-of-control US? The South Americans will give you the same answer as the Arabs, who will give the same answer as the Asians and the Africans.

    There is no such thing as a "smart bomb", when it explodes it doesn't pick and choose it's victims. I can't beleive the irony in all of this: in order to spread peace and reduce civilian casualties we must build greater and stronger weapons. Why not stop building weapons and cure all the poverty problems of the world - then no-one would have the right to hate your government, and we could all be free of these crazy terrorists and theie relentless attacks on us.

    I doubt this very much, it would be interesting to see how much the Iraqi civilians in the current conflict are getting.

    Ofcourse.
     
  18. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,412

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    notice what i've put in bold... @if are you in England currently? This is exactly the type of separation that we have been discussing in the BNP thread, regarding our 'colonial cousins' putting up the bridges and walls of separation, rather than building them to connect

    If you are not in this country thats all fair and well, however if you are in this country referring to the UK as yours shows that it is seen as ours. I've had this so much over the years where ethnic minorities have said akin to your government, or the british government, in fact i dont think i've ever heard a minority off the street refer to the Government as 'ours'

    >| Raoh |<
     
  19. clv101

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

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    Location: Bristol

    Isn’t he referring to the US government…
     
  20. @if ®afiq

    Soldato

    Joined: May 3, 2003

    Posts: 6,080

    Yes I was, I was replying to Stiff_Cookie - who I believe is American (unless I'm mistaken).