1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

US Military Dead

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by clv101, Jan 18, 2006.

  1. Treefrog

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Nov 7, 2004

    Posts: 2,828

    Location: Up a tree - where else?

    I've heard varying stories about who actually gassed the Kurds - some say Saddam, some say Iran. I personally think Saddam is the most likely culprit since he was known to want an end to the "Kurdish problem". Not discounting that the Iranians could have done it to discredit him.

    Back on topic ;)
    It's not just the number of deaths which are relevant here, but also the numbers wounded, the ones who have lost limbs, suffer from PTSD and other afflictions who can no longer work for a living and will be on Medicare for the rest of their lives. What about the cost to the economy (and families) there? And also the long-term effects of the war on health of those who served in GW I? The so-called "Gulf War Syndrome?

    From newswithviews.com:
     
  2. @if ®afiq

    Soldato

    Joined: May 3, 2003

    Posts: 6,080

    It's so sad that the majority of US citizens are oblivious to the health of those that served in GW1.

    Those figures seem extraordinarily high - do you know if any "reliable" study has been carried out.
     
  3. Treefrog

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Nov 7, 2004

    Posts: 2,828

    Location: Up a tree - where else?

    More than extraordinary - incredible is the word that I would use; and that would depend on who you class as "reliable." As the US Gov't's official line is that GWS doesn't exist, there's no Gov't investigation into the cause of these disabilities.

    Assuming that any organisation will word statements to their maximum advantage, we can assume that some of these were work related, car accidents, DIY mishaps, etc which resulted in disability. I'll be honest, I have no idea of how many males aged say, 20-40, would become disabled like this over the course of 9 years, but I'll bet 10% would cover it. And the people living in the area beforehand had nothing special that would cause it. Which still leaves 46% of those who served as disabled by something that happened there, or somewhere else connected with the Army.

    The only things I have seen mentioned in this respect are i) the vaccines that they were injected with prior to going to the ME, and ii) dust and gases from the Depleted Uranium munitions. As vaccines aren't known to cause birth defects (some of which are horrific and definitely NOT forum-friendly), neither does sand nor oil, but radiation does, the main suspect is DU. This is borne out by the increased number of birth defects in Iraq since GW I.

    DU is toxic and radioactive, and is, according to Leuren Moret "the perfect vehicle for trashing DNA" Hmmmmm, birth defects.

    Linky
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2006
  4. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    But hardly surprising really, given that they want to recruit more soldiers, and hundreds of thousands of disabled soldiers, amputees etc. is not a good advert for the "exciting career in the army" promised by the US Army recruiting campaign is it?
     
  5. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,410

    Location: In the Gym

    Napalm hasnt been used on civilian areas to my knowledge, i'll say yes some have been tortured i'm not going to deny the prisoner abuse scandal lead to death because i'd be lying, lined up in the streets and shot? i wouldnt go that far, it hasnt happened and for the thugs in Fallujah that death would be too good for them. Enemy troops have been carpet bombed, its not uncommon to get radiation expose from DU, hospitals are opening at a high rate in Iraq now, as i've said there are over 100,000 extra nurses that have recently been employed to work in them. Electricity is not 1hr in 6, your probably stating the worst hit areas, electricity demand has gone up since the Iraqi's have been allowed to have TV's

    100,000 people have not died go to the Iraq Body Count.org and it tells you how many have died it certainly isnt 100,000

    Actually... yes i did :o you got me, but i will say that Iraq's infrastructure before the first Gulf War was certainly no monolith

    >| Raoh |<
     
  6. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    No, they call it something else now (MK77 a quick google tells me).

    Fallujah was full of civilians, not just all thugs. As I've said before, plenty of websites exist with pictures of dead women and children in Fallujah if you really want to see them.
     
  7. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,410

    Location: In the Gym

    Yes estimates of how its used are sketchy though some sites say 30bombs some say 500, it is an HI Bomb no doubt about it.

    Fallujah is full of terrorists and you'd be thankful it wasnt left to me because i'd have 30MOAB's dropped on it. Yes dead women and children killed by Terrorist forces.

    For every picture you post i hazard i could post 10 of death scenes (if the link would allow the old faithful death website link) caused by terrorist fighters, i remember particular pictures of mutilated US Marines from when they entered Fallujah for the first time, having breeze blocks dropped on their heads, hacked apart with shovels, dragged around from the back of trucks and hung over the bridge. Thats before we count the besieged Mosque of terrorist forces where those inside who wanted to surrender were mutilated by the senior members.

    >| Raoh |<
     
  8. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    You seem to be forgetting the fact that it was the American troops that raided Fallujah, not the "terrorists". Yes some people inside Fallujah had guns and fought back, and some may have blown themselves (and others) up in car bombs, but the vast majority were killed by the American raid.

    I'm not denying the gruesome events you describe after the raid though, the burnt corpses dragged behind cars etc. all of which is terrible as you say. But let's not forget why they are so angry with the American troops, i.e. the fact that they raided their city and killed their families and freinds. I think you might be ever so slightly annoyed if the same thing happened to you and yours.
     
  9. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,410

    Location: In the Gym

    actually it all kicked of when US Personnel were attacked and killed in Fallujah as i stated, that happened before the Fallujah offensive, the reports say that they were coalition troops but i remember the Beeb article stating they were contractors (as that article also states, i believe the coalition more than one of those animals). Some people? it was an entire town fighting back at them! There were crowds (see article) that showed this, it wasnt simply a small rabble of angry people it was virtually the whole village who were chanting as the bodies of the men were dragged around.

    I'd send them to join their family then with a big kiss on a bomb

    >| Raoh |<
     
  10. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    From your own link...

     
  11. @if ®afiq

    Soldato

    Joined: May 3, 2003

    Posts: 6,080

    The Iraq Body Count website only records those deaths that have caught the attention of the media:

    As good a site as it is, it is in no way accurate.

    And since you'rr talking about the massacre in Fallujah and the IBC, I thought it would be nice to link to their section on it.
     
  12. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,410

    Location: In the Gym

    yes but did you happen to see Video footage and even pictures of the incident? More than a little portion if you ask me 1,000's are in no way a minority given that the entire incident only occurred in a small area

    I'll post this as its highly relevant to the this response: Be warned before clicking US Marines Butchered in Fallujah

    and now images that are "warmer" [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    last one: [​IMG]


    >| Raoh |<
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2006
  13. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    It's in the US military's best interests to play up the insurgency to justify the American brutality, not play it down, so if they say the insurgency are a minority why would you not believe them?

    No matter how many pictures of dead Americans you post, ther are vastly more pictures of dead Iraqis out there, and they are not pretty either.

    Whichever counts you use, Iraqi dead and injured vastly outnumber American dead and injured. Now if the war was totally justified then I could just about accept the dead, but that obviously isn't the case.
     
  14. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,410

    Location: In the Gym

    in terms of Ratio's the American dead is i believe higher than the Iraqi dead.

    Of course it would be in their interests to play it up. At least Americans dont go around beheading Iraqi's with blunt knives chanting God is greatest and cheering when its done! The insurgency are a minority i believe, but its a substantial minority.

    Of course their are more dead Iraqi's out there... its Iraq. They wont be pretty of course but at least they wont be beheadings, and torture victims, most would have had a pretty quick and clean death compared to those who were beheaded!

    I think the war too would be still just, its just that other parties are getting involved (Iranian) and these are severely hampering the re-vamp effort. If these attacks appeased or a cease fire occurred even for just a month the Iraqi's would notice a difference

    >| Raoh |<
     
  15. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    Each death is an individual person. What relevance does a ratio have, other than it being something you can use to make the Iraqis seem worse than the Americans?

    A shot to the stomach or an arm blown off is a much slower and more painful death than a beheading. It doesn't make as good TV though.

    So again, a slight change from your original "fallujah is full of terrorists" and "it was an entire town fighting back at them" comments ;)

    As above. Gunshot wounds are not like in the movies you know ;)
     
  16. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,410

    Location: In the Gym

    It has a relevance because it shows that Iraqi's might not be suffering as much as some people make out

    Its slower and more painful but imagine being held for days being told you're going to die then getting your head cut off ata relatively slow speed, i'd rather die from losing my arm or being shot in the stomach than having something like a beheading done to me.

    Right, this is where you havent read andor intepreted my post incorrectly. Fallujah is/was an insurgent stronghold, USD estimated that a minimum of several hundred insurgent fighters travelled to Fallujah, residents were given a chance to leave before the assault. Fallujah is a hotbed of extremist and anti-American activity, the townspeople as well as (that means also) the insurgents were the people fighting American troops in Fallujah

    I dont know todays special effects ;)

    >| Raoh |<
     
  17. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    Of course they are. They have at least ten times the number of families who have lost loved ones. How is that not suffering?

    Tens of thousands have died from bombs and gunshots etc. How many have been beheaded, a hundred, if that?

    Your original post said fallujah was full of terrorists and the entire city was fighting back. The link you posted said that even the US military said only a minority were fighting back and the vast majority just wanted to be left in peace - which I believe to be true given that in my experience that's basically what nearly everybody in the world wants, wife and kids and to be left to live life in peace.
     
  18. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,410

    Location: In the Gym

    and i care about Iraqi families because.....

    Its still their i'd rather die a hundred times from gunshot than beheading

    Yes my original post did say fallujah was the entire city, i've posted images to the massive support there is there for Death to America, and America's Graveyard. No you've read wrong, the link there said that a minority were resisting regarding that incident (the killing of American engineers) the actual assault consisted of possibly thousands of extremists/townspeople

    Yes i agree people want to be left in peace, but they wouldnt be left in peace with Saddam, if you had a nice daughter she'd be raped in front of you by Republican Guard Units

    >| Raoh |<
     
  19. anarchist

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Dec 2, 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    They are human beings? Sorry, I was making a big assumption there, that people might actually care for other people...

    My choice of death would be the quickest possible, and beheading is pretty damn quick compared to a gunshot (except a gunshot to the head of course).

    I don't doubt that the townspeople are happy when they gain some slim victory over the American soldiers. Again, put yourself in their shoes. Iraq invades Stoke and kills many of your family and friends, but then you manage to fight back and kill a few Iraqi soldiers. Wouldn't you be rather happy about that?

    Saddam's guards raped every daughter in Iraq? Or is this another one of your huge generalisations? Yes many people were killed and abused by Saddam, and nobody would condone that, but a large proportion of Iraqis also said their life was much better under Saddam than it is now.
     
  20. RaohNS

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2004

    Posts: 8,410

    Location: In the Gym

    Its just i rather look after my countrymen than someone who wants me dead, it would be the other way around but not all Brits want that, not the same can be said for a good chunk of Iraqi's

    Beheading causes massive trauma, its your head for goodness sake! Not even an animal deserves to die like that

    I'd keep their bodies as a trophy. But get realistic we are in a much better position than they

    I didnt say every daughter, i said if she was attractive, she'd be raped, either way there were too many cases of women being raped, while having to watch their parents be killed. Its a horrible situation, one i wouldnt even wish on the Iraqi's or (virtually) anyone. However as you say large numbers of Iraqi's think they were better under Saddam, but likewise many would say "Wow i can get on the internet" "A TV We normally had to go and watch this at the cafe" (dont make smart remarks about wish we had electricity to watch it etc etc you catch my drift)

    >| Raoh |<