US official killed in embassy raid in Libya

Castiel said:
To be fair he is a minister who comes from and lives in Peshawar, which is in the Tribal regions (FATA) of northern Pakistan so the politics there are going to be somewhat divisive and pander to the kind of anti-western, fundamental Islamist mentality that would expect their politicians to make such daft pronouncements...it also puts the Pakistani Government in an awkward position and particularly the PM who is an opponent of the ANP, the party to which the Peshawan minister belongs.

Pakistani politics is not in any way comparable to our own and it is not as simple as removing him, at least not without significant negotiation within the coalition first.
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Yep, this is what happens when empires take over tribal regions, quit and make countries out of tribal regions. Yugoslavia, the Middle East, Africa, etc .. all worked out so well.
 
Xordium said:
Yep, this is what happens when empires take over tribal regions, quit and make countries out of tribal regions. Yugoslavia, the Middle East, Africa, etc .. all worked out so well.
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Once again you seem to be letting off smoke grenades around the problem... ie: For all your reasoning and 'excuses' the only way this violence will stop is if the culture changes from within, such that it recognises the use of violence in an attempt to terrorise others into compliance over their media is unacceptable.

Over the past week(s) we've seen mobs at work trying to destroy and kill, and now an MP endorsing murder. To me it shows an endemic cultural problem which is incompatible with the modern world, and this needs to be addressed. And until it is, such violence will happen over and over... no matter how much you tip toe around it with other points and/or excuses.
 
NeilFawcett said:
Once again you seem to be letting off smoke grenades around the problem... ie: For all your reasoning and 'excuses' the only way this violence will stop is if the culture changes from within, such that it recognises the use of violence in an attempt to terrorise others into compliance over their media is unacceptable.

Over the past week(s) we've seen mobs at work trying to destroy and kill, and now an MP endorsing murder. To me it shows an endemic cultural problem which is incompatible with the modern world, and this needs to be addressed. And until it is, such violence will happen over and over... no matter how much you tip toe around it with other points and/or excuses.
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No, I am not. I am not offering excuses I am offering reasons. Unlike you I am prepared to look at the role the West plays in this. When we start treating those parts of the world differently then maybe then we can wholly point the finger of blame. But whilst we interfere then we are hardly going to facilitate the change within that you request.

So you can twist my arguments again all you want. But the chances are the culture won't change within whilst the people are bombed, invaded, oppressed, exploited by the West and their agents. Nowhere do I say they have to rise to that provocation.

My suggestion is how about we stop treating them so badly and they start to stop behaving badly. I find it rather worrying you think the later will ever happen without the former. A great deal of the problems over there are a direct result of what the West and the Soviet Union did during the Cold War.
 
Xordium said:
No, I am not. I am not offering excuses I am offering reasons. Unlike you I am prepared to look at the role the West plays in this. When we start treating those parts of the world differently then maybe then we can wholly point the finger of blame. But whilst we interfere then we are hardly going to facilitate the change within that you request.

So you can twist my arguments again all you want. But the chances are the culture won't change within whilst the people are bombed, invaded, oppressed, exploited by the West and their agents. Nowhere do I say they have to rise to that provocation.

My suggestion is how about we stop treating them so badly and they start to stop behaving badly. I find it rather worrying you think the later will ever happen without the former. A great deal of the problems over there are a direct result of what the West and the Soviet Union did during the Cold War.
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You may have a point... But consider this... How many of the individuals rioting have had the slightest contact with the West in reality, yet alone been bombed, invaded, oppressed, or exploited by the West. I suspect most have never even had the slightest problem with anyone from the West, ever... I'd suggest as such the violence is more down to the religious fanaticism than historical reasons.

Have you considered had it been Australia for example, or Africa, that had been seen as the source of this would the problem have vanished without violence? I suspect we'd still have seen the same, or similar degrees of the same nonsense. Indeed, one has to ask given your point, why Sydney was targeted in the recent violence? I don't recall them bombing or invading anyone for a good while.

My point is I know it's nice to suggest its the big bad West's fault (in part?) for this, but I really do suspect similar amounts of mindless anger could be targeted at anyone seen to be offending Islam. We're talking about a mindset that sees violence in defense of faith as acceptable. I suspect this far overrides and historical backwash with the West.
 
NeilFawcett said:
You may have a point... But consider this... How many of the individuals rioting have had the slightest contact with the West in reality, yet alone been bombed, invaded, oppressed, or exploited by the West. I suspect most have never even had the slightest problem with anyone from the West, ever... I'd suggest as such the violence is more down to the religious fanaticism than historical reasons.
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Which goes back to my earlier point. I am sure most of those people will not have been directly exposed to direct action by the actions of the west but indirectly they will have been. They obviously see a sense of connection in the same way all our youths rioted when it is quite obviously clear they had no connection with the Duggan lad.

And again you suggest but you have not and no one has here directly shown how you can remove everything else to sufficiently say it is just their particular kind of faith. I thing there is a very obvious anti-Islamic bias pervasive through Western society - again for historical reasons - for example the Guardian article I highlighted earlier. I suggest we stop focusing on the religion and start looking at the root cause of the problems. Because elsewhere in the world we see similar behaviour in reaction to something quite insubstantial and yet it does not get labelled as being caused by religion it rightfully gets attributed to the sociological causes and the complex nature of such issues. That does not mean either religion is to be totally excluded and removed from blame. It should be challenged but on the grand scale the actions of the US military have done far more damage in the Muslim world than that stupid film will ever do and it's about time people start accepting that and stop condoning the powers that push that agenda forward and acting shocked and horrified when the subsequent reactions occur.

NeilFawcett said:
Have you considered had it been Australia for example, or Africa, that had been seen as the source of this would the problem have vanished without violence? I suspect we'd still have seen the same, or similar degrees of the same nonsense. Indeed, one has to ask given your point, why Sydney was targeted in the recent violence? I don't recall them bombing or invading anyone for a good while.
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Sydney has a large immigrant population with direct immediate generational ties to those areas. Hardly shocking. Well to date we haven't seen that have we from Africa so we'll only know when it happens whether your theory stands up. And the last time I looked Africans were too busy killing each other North, Central and South (predominately Christain) to concentrate their gaze outside of the continent.

NeilFawcett said:
My point is I know it's nice to suggest its the big bad West's fault (in part?) for this, but I really do suspect similar amounts of mindless anger could be targeted at anyone seen to be offending Islam. We're talking about a mindset that sees violence in defense of faith as acceptable. I suspect this far overrides and historical backwash with the West.
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Yes the key part there is - in part. Yes some of the blame does stop with us. I have made it clear all along I think the actions of the people in the Middle East are shaped by ignorance, stupidity and hate. But unlike most people here I can't help but wonder if the numbers involved would be lessened and the moderate voice heard more freely if our treatment of that region had not allowed such oppressive people and regimes to govern.

That is the precise reason I challenge people who say the "OMG it's the crazy Muslims". Not because I am one - I am not. But because I see the same blinkered thought patterns and outright declarations of belief without any deep thought in those very statements on both sides of the argument. The obvious difference between the then resulting acts of violence. Fortunately, (or not) for us our acts of violence are also carried out young and angry men with little education, etc it is just that fate saw fit to see them born in another country and enter the service of the US army and prosecute their violence in another land. But I think most people would say the actions of those men speak no more for our wishes than they mobs in the Middle East speak for the large majority of Muslims. What is not happening is the moderate voices in the Muslim world and the Western world are not actively challenging both issues and therefore we arrive at the current situation.

If we are genuinely happy with the actions of our leaders in the goal to ensure we carry on our current lifestyle and appropriate resources etc then really let's just knock this on the head - know it is inevitable and just accept it.
 
Let the witch hunt begin - "Anti-Muslim film maker detained"

I'm fascinated to see the treatment he gets, compared to what we'd imagine happening if X thousand idiots hadn't kicked off with violence? ie: Has the "terrorism" worked?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article3552325.ece

The man behind the anti-Muslim video that has sparked violent protests throughout the Middle East was jailed in California last night.

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula was detained on the orders of a judge who feared he may abscond before a court appearance on charges of violating his probation.
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That said, he sounds a bit bonkers himself!
 
Now pictures on facebook are kicking off the violence - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19780692

Muslim protesters have attacked Buddhist villages in Bangladesh, after an image said to show a burnt Koran was posted on social network site Facebook.

Witnesses said angry crowds set fire to homes and temples in the Cox's Bazar district, forcing families to flee.

A curfew has been imposed and security forces are patrolling the streets.

The man accused of posting the image is in protective custody. Police say he was tagged in the photo but did not post it himself.

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Bangladeshi Home Minister Mohiuddin Khan Alamgir visited the scene and described the violence as "premeditated and deliberate acts of communal violence against a minority".
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Over a hundred people have been arrested...
 
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