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'VIP paedophile ring' accuser to face trial in May

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Evangelion, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 21,443

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    The 'virtually everyone in British politics is a closet paedophile murderer' conspiracy theory cops another smackdown:

    (Source).

    In Australia we have a lunatic called Fiona Barrett who insists she was the victim of an international Satanic paedophile network whose activities included the rape and murder of children. The list of people she claims to have abused her includes:

    * Antony Kidman (actress Nicole Kidman’s father)
    * former US President Richard Nixon
    * former Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam
    * former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke
    * former Australian Prime Minister Paul Keating
    * former Australian Opposition Leader Kim Beazley
    * former NSW Premier Bob Carr
    * US Evangelist pastor Billy Graham
    * Ted Turner (founder of CNN)

    I don't understand why these nutters are so desperate for attention that they make up such lies, but I sure as hell hope Barrett gets dragged into court one day.
     
  2. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,272

    Mental Illness will obviously form part of the reason, it happens a lot more in rape cases then people care to admit because it flies in the current narrive of "we must believe every rape accusation" and "Guilty until proven innocent" that activists want to push
     
  3. jsmoke

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 17, 2012

    Posts: 6,896

    Maybe she was sexually abused by someone when younger and has now gone into some deep denial inventing stories in her head to divert the thoughts of her real abuse.
     
  4. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 19,989

    The CT nuts will just spin it as the establishment shutting them down to silence them. There isn't a huge amount of reasoning going in to their thinking after all.
     
  5. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 21,443

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    I have no doubt that this is the case for some of them. But people like Barrett just come across as attention seeking fantasists.

    There's no evidence that she was ever sexually abused by anyone.
     
  6. jsmoke

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 17, 2012

    Posts: 6,896

    Something must have triggered it surely?
     
  7. antijoke

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 28, 2003

    Posts: 37,479

    Location: Stratford-Upon-Avon

    Interesting, I have just come across a book about this and there's also a banned discovery documentary about the ring as well, all came about because I am watching True Detective season 3 and someone mentioned it in passing.
     
  8. efish

    Hitman

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 879

    To make the claim, something clearly motivated the individual to so but you would have to speculate.

    The other question is why when such claims are made do they become so popular and widespread?

    The idea of a tyrannical political leaders using sexual/ magical force dates from the late 17th century and belongs to a political/ literary genre known as the 'secret history.'
    Very very popular. Political gossip with 'a what the butler saw aspect.'

    Genre with a mass literary appeal. More than simple stories as people use them to deploy political ideas in a highly popular fictive form.
     
  9. Orionaut

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 2, 2012

    Posts: 6,405

    All the best conspiracy theories have an element of truth.

    It is certain that that there was far more sympathy within political circles if not actual practicing individuals for various "Deviancy's" during the 1950's than there was in the wider public.

    the De-decriminalization of Homosexual acts was a very unpopular piece of legislation with the general public back in 1963 and would not have been passed had MP's (And the senior civil servants who supported them) reflected the attitudes (And personal behavior) of the wider public.

    Remember, the main reason for the changes wasn't actually about equality. It was about protecting wealthy and influential politicions (And their professional class friends) from being threatened by blackmailers.

    The equality thing came rather later!

    It is actually very easy to look back on senior figures from that time with a degree of suspicion. Remember that many of them would have been engaging in acts that were illegal then and even if not necessarily illegal today it is easy to believe that if you are happy to engage in some illegal acts (That are now not illegal) then you might well have also been happy to engage in other, rather more serious, ones (That will still be illegal today)
     
  10. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,300

    There was a wing of social workers who were taught that child problems were the cause of satanic child abuse. There have been trials that were abandoned and people had this over their lives for years. Private Eye has a series of articles on the problem and it seemed to be that once a senior social worker who was persuaded of this theory were sacked from Council A they went on to Council B in a more senior level and instigated the same policies.
    It is another version of the Middle Ages scare stories of Jews eating Christian children and is BS.
    (*given mankinds ability to inflict pain on their fellow man it is not impossible that somewhere, sometime in history an incident of this type did happen but it is a rareity)
     
  11. Orionaut

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 2, 2012

    Posts: 6,405

    Cleveland


    Again, all good conspiracy theories have an element of truth.

    The "Blood Libel" thing is no different, but was probabally based on a misunderstanding of ritual.

    AIUI, when the circumcision is performed, part of the traditional ritual is that the Mohel cleans the wound by sucking blood away from the baby's penis.

    This could easily be misunderstood/misrepresented by non jews as being as some sort of satanic babies blood drinking ritual.

    The accusation of satanic blood rituals is not correct, but it is not wholey wrong either.

    :/
     
  12. efish

    Hitman

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 879

    Simply repeating all good conspiracy theories have an element of truth, does not make it true. I have no idea what you having been reading, which suggests the blood libel myth is based on mis- observation but I suspect it was not written by a historian.

    The 'misobservation' thesis of popular beleif was popular in 19th century accounts by scientists discussing folklore and folk belief. It still exists in more popular H.O.S fiction, but its not very credible.

    De-criminalization of homosexuality had nothing to do with equality, based on the idea that the state had no right to intervene in the private life of citizens.

    You are suggesting the real reason is 'they' engaged in a secret conspiracy, hiding the real reason beneath a legal philosophical position, which looks on the surface to be perfectly credible?

    Conspiracy theories (including secret histories revealing the true nature of those in power) are by identification not true, having no basis in fact. A form of political fiction or literature.

    Uses fictive forms to disclose or reveal truth to assert a political or cultural identity.

    The idea that one of the most persistent antisemitic tales in history is simply a mis- observed error misses one vital political and cultural factor i.e. the long European history of antisemitic thought.

    The major flaw with the mis-observation/ origin thesis is with folk belief, tales here can be remarkable conservative and remain in circulation of hundreds or even thousands of years, tracing it back to an origin, long gone or long forgotten, tells you nothing about its subsequent repetition.

    Ahistorical thesis as it takes no account of historical or social change and suggests instead a timeless repetition from origin.

    Tales need a place to unfold and a context in which to be told. Blood libel fitted peoples beliefs about Jews and gave a reason to justify persecution, hence its repetition.


    Its a legendary or fictive from of proof that justifies the belief that Jews are by nature evil and that prosecution, violence and hatred of Jews is justified.

    As no such justification exists you make it up and present a historical fiction as fact (legendary proof).
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  13. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 1,749

    I think until the grooming gangs crimes came out in to the public people was saying that was a conspiracy, and even racist to just mention it. It shows how many people were involved but it was never confronted until recently. Same with the Catholic church. How many years was that going on before it was confronted?

    The problem with headlines like this is that some genuine suspicious people will use it to sweep their activities under the carpet too. We already have hints that other things have happened over the years with various people. We know corruption is rift, and now that homosexuality as become accepted there is only one taboo activity that can be used for blackmail.
     
  14. efish

    Hitman

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 879

    "After this, therefore because of this."

    When you see a pattern and relationship and assume (based on the order of events) the outcome must be true.

    'The rooster crows before sunrise, therefore the rooster causes the sun to rise.'
     
  15. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 1,749

    A conspiracy theory exists because we're never told the 100% truth. So we're left with half a story. If we say all conspiracies are fake then that is also wrong because some big ones have become known to be true.

    I noticed that you didn't comment the 2 examples I give, the asian grooming gangs and the catholic church. 20 years ago if someone had mentioned those scandals you might have said: "How can all those people be involved and it not come out!? That's a conspiracy theory!". But as we know now those things did happen and involved 100's of people. When it comes to sexual crimes people are reluctant to talk about it.
     
  16. efish

    Hitman

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 879

    Huge difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory, they are not remotely the same thing. The fact people may say stupid things and reach false conclusions does not suggest that their may be some truth in the claim that the moon landings were faked, Ted Cruz's dad helped kill J.F.K or that geologists are engaged in a vast conspiracy to withhold the knowledge that the earth is flat.

    Example at the moment although its a viral hoax rather than a conspiracy theory.
    Momo challenge, kids are being sent the momo challenge online and are commuting suicide. People accept that it is not true but that the fact its not true does not matter, as it may still happen in the future (on the Newsnight vid on you tube) .

    What people are concerned about is the viral nature and hysteria surrounding the subject, which is not unreasonable.

    Not unreasonable to suggest that making false claims or false classifications can have serious consequences. It is entirely unreasonable to suggest that therefore we can't reject clearly false claims or identify fact from fiction.

    p.s I did not make a remark in regard to you're first claim, as clearly I don't disagree that believing in a conspiracy i.e the evidence suggested it was a conspiracy driven by racists is a good thing.

    Its based on the same false reasoning, racism exists, racists make false claims, therefore my belief that this is false must hold some truth.

    Claims like we can't identify falsehood as it may undermine truth are little different from saying 'we should keep this quite, slow investigation, not make public as it may lead to people making racist claims', or 'this should be swept under the carpet as it may lead to a decline in faith.'

    Let people accept and live with the lie to preserve a greater truth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  17. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 1,749

    This is a story that was considered a conspiracy theory until it was proved right: https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ws/david-steel-investigated-lib-dems-15975085

    Everyone in the local area knew what Smith was up to but nothing was done about it. I suggest people look in to the Cyril Smith case to see how the authorities acted.

    David Steel denied for years the allegations against Smith, and even nominated Smith for a Knighthood!.. and now many years later in the official investigation he tells them that Smith had confirmed he had abused kids. But Steel didn't tell anyone and played the whole story down for years. Glad to know he's now being investigated himself, maybe the cops just get involved in that investigation too.
     
  18. efish

    Hitman

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 879

    Where have you got these two 'facts' from?

    Allegations against Smith were reported for years. Private eye in particular ran stories on both Smith and further unconnected but serious allegations relating to children's homes and started the ball rolling. Further reporting followed.

    They were not considered to be conspiracy theories but unproven but serious allegations that appeared to be the subject of a political cover up.

    They have been the subject of serious investigative journalism since the claims first surfaced.

    Steele, Smith and Savile. Relationship with power and authority. Both Savile and Smith cultivated relationships with people in authority and as a result were able to act with impunity for years.

    These allegations have been known for years. Its the relationship with power and authority that is the issue here, not peoples acceptance of false belief.

    Steele suppressed evidence and hindered investigation despite widespread and repeated calls for investigation over the years . He was able to do so as he held a position of authority not because of his ability to tell tall tales which were accepted by a credulous general public.

    Issue is evidence and its suppression.

    Asking people to act on faith or belief on the basis that their 'is no smoke without fire' is not a solution to lack of factual data, rather it suggests that facts no longer matter.

    If you ask no questions you will hear no lies but you get no nearer to truth.

    Conspiracy theories are false narratives that have zero truth and zero supporting evidence other than invented or imagined claims.

    They are arguments which have no defense as they have no basis in fact.

    "A conspiracy theory is the fear of a nonexistent conspiracy" Its that simple. No good or bad conspiracy theories, they are belief's which have no direct relationship with reality.

    Groups behave differently from individuals and people in groups can be far more prone to engage in risky behavior. Its why we have criminal conspiracy laws and additional heavy sentencing for crimes where 'agreements' are reached between criminals.

    In order to control crime realistic models are required. No one disputes the fact that criminal conspiracies exist, that in no way suggests that therefore conspiracy theories must be real and that the acceptance and toleration of complete fiction is a good way to manage or control crime.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  19. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 1,749

    Because I live near the local area and a local magazine that was being regularly published did an indepth investigation about this, talking to people that were directly involved. The magazine was originally printed in the 1960s and they produced full documentary evidence and I believe either they approached the police or others did, and apart from a cursory look at the subject the police did nothing.

    The conspiracy is that the evidence was there in the 1960s and nobody in authority wanted to know about it. There was conspiracy of silence, especially when David Steele (now Lord Steele) dismissed it and not only backed Smith up but nominated him for a knighthood.

    I'm not sure if we're talking at cross purposes on this subject as I agree with the vast majority of your post but you don't seem to call it a conspiracy.

    Maybe the original meaning of conspiracy theory is what you say. But my contention is that certain subjects which have truth in them are being called a conspiracy when they really aren't. I know some people have started using the term conspiracy fact because there are factual actions that are dismissed by people in authority and generally played down.

    By the actions of a few people Smith managed to get away with his crimes for around 60 years, even when he confirmed his crimes when asked. A normal person would have been arrested and jailed in the 1960s for what he did.

    A conspiracy theory in my opinion is more about the authority reaction rather than the individual. An example would be when someone is repeatedly caught in possession of stolen goods yet never prosecuted. What term would you use in that situation?
     
  20. efish

    Hitman

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 879

    An example in law would be Big Vern, Tom and Joe decide and plan to rob a bank, Sandra hot wires a getaway car but at the last moment they bottle out and don't rob the bank.

    Big Vern (who was the criminal mastermind who supplied all the details) stayed at home on the day of the bank raid, leaving Tom,Joe and Sandra to take all the risk.

    All would be guilty of criminal conspiracy including big Vern.

    The example you gave is more often than not due to a corrupt relationship between the police and criminals (from a city that has a long history of relationships of this type between the police and organized criminals).

    If individuals were working in the government as a group to pervert the course of justice it would be a conspiracy. Its an additional charge and dealt with seriously as it is a reality. Lots of research from psychology and economics that has influenced Legal thought. Group behavior, the creation of a shared social identity can lead to more risk being taken by groups, that individuals alone would not undertake.

    Organized criminal activity poses a greater risk to society, its a serious crime. Crime management has to track the reality of crime and work as an effective deterrent for the public good.

    Terrorist offenses and the behavior of terrorist recruits a contemporary example of where conspiracy laws are often deployed and also how the crimes are understood and investigated.

    A conspiracy theory is entirely different thing. The belief that Paul McCartney died in 1966 and was secretly replaced by a look-alike. President Obama's birth certificate is kept hidden because he is not American. etc. etc. Secrecy and often the absence of any evidence to support the claims being made are used to suggest the theory is true; no evidence exists because it is being hidden.


    Making a distinction between a conspiracy and conspiracy theory is really important as conspiracy theories are entirely fictive yet they are a very real cultural phenomena.

    In the same way its useful to tell a cat apart from a dog. Or in the case of tracking reality a dog from a unicorn.

    I think there is a growing body of evidence that suggests that if you are rich and well connected the wheels of justice turn very differently from someone who is poor and not well connected.

    That is utterly unacceptable, but its a different issue from this ( although its also a part of psychology of group behavior and collective social identity).
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019