Wait a minute, hang on. Why aren't we doing this?

Ricochet J

Ricochet J

Ricochet J

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Infact, why isn't the world doing this?

BBC said:
The coconut tree is a beautiful tree. Doesn't it sound good if you really run your car on something which falls off a tree and that's the good thing about it. You run your car and it smells nice and it's environmentally friendly and that's the main thing.
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The only drawback I can see is you may have a shortage of coconut trees. Now importing coconuts should be cheaper. And as a whole should sort out the crises in 3rd World Countries as they can grow them and supply the world. There's probably more to this, but I can't see it.

:)
 
Ricochet J said:
Infact, why isn't the world doing this?



The only drawback I can see is you may have a shortage of coconut trees. Now importing coconuts should be cheaper. And as a whole should sort out the crises in 3rd World Countries as they can grow them and supply the world. There's probably more to this, but I can't see it.


:)
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yep one huge problem, there's not enough land to supply global demands. if you covered the entire uk in bio producing crops, cities and all, you wouldn't even reach 10% of are(UK) oil needs, in fact it's much closer to 5%.

The research might be helpful, but bio fuels can't replace oil, apart from a small minority of people.
 
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AcidHell2 said:
yep one huge problem, there's not enough land to supply global demands. if you covered the entire uk in bio producing crops, cities and all, you wouldn't even reach 10% of are oil needs, in fact it's much closer to 5%.

The research might be helpful, but bio fuels can't replace oil, apart from a small minority of people.
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Couldn't they be genetically modified to improve yields/efficiency though? Or is that a bit sci-fi still? :D
 
NathanE said:
Couldn't they be genetically modified to improve yields/efficiency though? Or is that a bit sci-fi still? :D
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could be, but then you would have to provide the fertiliser to grow such super breeds, which would require energy to be made.

Everyone keeps banging on about bio-fuels but it's nothing more than a gimic. for the above reason. There's only two types of clean energy I have seen so far. that's fuel cells, and that depends what they run on, But the clear runner but not knowen and for some reason not being taken seriously. Is nano metal particles. Can be used in a petrol engine with next to no modification. the metal particles are almost 100% recyclable into new fuel. Metals are easy and cheap to mine.
 
Weren't some UK startup firms looking at converting offal from abbatoirs into Bio-Diesel?

I just have visions of car emissions making city centres smell like the biggest fart on Earth though :eek:
 
AcidHell2 said:
could be, but then you would have to provide the fertiliser to grow such super breeds, which would require energy to be made.

Everyone keeps banging on about bio-fuels but it's nothing more than a gimic. for the above reason. There's only two types of clean energy I have seen so far. that's fuel cells, and that depends what they run on, But the clear runner but not knowen and for some reason not being taken seriously. Is nano metal particles. Can be used in a petrol engine with next to no modification. the metal particles are almost 100% recyclable into new fuel. Metals are easy and cheap to mine.
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Have you got a link to some information about nano metal. I searched 'nano metal particles' but it was all way over my head. Never heard of them before and any info would be much appreciated.
 
I know hydrogen is explosive at room temperature, but I saw a lot of publicity for the GM Hywire and that Mercedes A-Class. They both ran on hydrogen and the only bi-product from that was water if I remember correctly. What happened with that one?
 
Broon said:
Have you got a link to some information about nano metal. I searched 'nano metal particles' but it was all way over my head. Never heard of them before and any info would be much appreciated.
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Metals such as iron are really quite reactive - if you get enough surface area it can cause an explosion. Ever seen someone throw flour in the air and light it? Same idea but more.

Edit: link for the metal as fuel thing: http://www.mng.org.uk/green_house/renewable_energy/metal_NS_article.htm
 
Alternative fuels aren't always the answer.

Bio-diesel isn't suitable for many diesel vehicles and often ends up damaging the engine.
 
Algae - 10,000 US gallons of biodiesel per acre

Werent those bombers going to use some kind of flour and ammonia as an IED

I disagree on bio fuel, it is presently used in a power station as a fuel not because its green but because its commercially viable.

Wiki has quite a lot of info on this. Algae can be made to produce an exponentially larger amount of fuel then any other source.

Of course tapping a pre made fuel is still simplier and cheaper but biodiesel is a viable alternative










A few links, quotes and sources from previous discussions:

BBC NEWS
Biofuel demand makes food expensive
By Nils Blythe
Business correspondent, BBC News, Chicago

The corn trading pit of the Chicago Board of Trade is an extraordinary place.

People yell orders and give frantic hand signals to seal their bargains.

The traders wear garish jackets, so that someone across the floor will know who he or she is dealing with.

The latest prices of consignments of corn for future delivery are displayed on giant electronic boards along the walls.

And, although the price fluctuates minute by minute, over the last year wholesale corn prices have roughly doubled.

A fifth for ethanol

The reason for the surging price is increasing demand from refineries that are buying corn - or maize as it is sometimes called - to turn it into ethanol.

The ethanol is then blended with conventional fuels for use in ordinary cars.

"We are using 20% of our corn for ethanol," says Roy Huckabay, executive vice president of the Linn Group, which advises commodity investors.

"When the energy markets went bananas over the last year, the value of corn as an energy source sky-rocketed."

Lucrative work

The US Government is promoting the use of ethanol with subsidies.

And President George W Bush has set ambitious targets for increasing the use of bio-fuels in future.

Ethanol produces lower greenhouse gas emissions than conventional fossil fuels.

But many observers think that the big attraction of bio-fuels for the Bush administration is that they will reduce America's dependence on imported oil.

The policy is also making some American farmers very happy.

Sam Martin manages 19,000 acres of land, mainly in Illinois.

He has always used some of the land to grow corn, but is now adding to the area that will be seeded with corn this spring.

"2007 should be a wonderful year," he says with an optimism uncharacteristic of the often hard-pressed farming community.

"At the coffee-shop people were talking about doctors quitting and taking up farming."

Cheap food no more

But the impact of soaring corn prices on consumers is likely to be less beneficial.

Corn is used directly by the food industry in things like corn flakes.

It is also widely used for feeding animals like pigs and chickens.

And food companies are warning that high corn prices will feed through to everyone's grocery bills.

In Mexico, there have been street demonstrations about the rising cost of tortillas, which are made from corn.

And rising food costs are unlikely to be the only impact of biofuel refineries buying into the corn market.

In places like Illinois, the price of agricultural land has started to rise.

That will eventually feed into the cost of other agricultural commodities.

Sam Martin puts it succinctly.

"I think that cheap food is history," he says.

Perverse consequences

This trade-off between greener fuels and higher food prices is one of several difficult issues thrown up by the rapid development of the biofuels industry.

The world has already witnessed the absurdity of virgin rainforests in Asia being torn down to make way for palm oil plantations.

Palm oil, like corn, has become hugely profitable because of demand from biofuel producers.

But the environmental benefits of the biofuels are outweighed by the loss of the rainforests.

Biofuels can make a contribution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

But the processes by which they are produced need to be kept under constant review to make sure that they do not have perverse consequences.

And that includes forcing up the price of essential foods.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/business/6481029.stm


Biodiesel - http://www.aviosol.com/index.php?sida=biopro_diesel&funktion=visa&sprak=engelska



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel


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Thats 10,000 US gallons per acre

Arizona Public Service and GreenFuel Technologies Corp. Successfully Recycle Power Plant Flue Gases into Transportation-Grade Biodiesel and Ethanol

November 30, 2006

Phoenix, AZ -

Algae bioreactor system connected directly to smokestack of APS' Redhawk 1,040 megawatt power plant recycles greenhouse gases into renewable biofuels

PHOENIX, Ariz. and Cambridge Mass. - Arizona Public Service Company (APS) and GreenFuel Technologies Corporation have announced that they have successfully recycled the carbon dioxide (CO2) from the stack gases of a power plant into transportation grade biofuels. The announcement was made at the Platts Global Energy Awards ceremonies today in New York. Using GreenFuel's Emissions-to-Biofuels™ algae bioreactor system connected to APS' 1,040 megawatt Redhawk power plant in Arlington, Ariz., GreenFuel was able to create a carbon-rich algal biomass with sufficient quality and concentration of oils and starch content to be converted into transportation-grade biodiesel and ethanol.

"This is the first time ever that algae biomass created on-site by direct connection to a commercial power plant has been successfully converted to both these biofuels," said Isaac Berzin, GreenFuel's founder and Chief Technology Officer. "The conversion and certification of the fuels were conducted by respected, independent laboratories."

GreenFuel's Emissions-to-Biofuels™ technology uses safe, naturally occurring algae to recycle carbon dioxide from the stack gases of power plants and other commercial sources of continuous CO2 emissions. At the Redhawk Power Plant, specially designed pipes captured and transported the CO2 emissions coming out of the stack. The gas was then transferred to specialized containers holding hungry algae. Algae are unicellular plants and, like all plants, they divide and grow using the process known as photosynthesis. In the presence of sunlight, algae consume CO2.

"We estimate that this process can absorb as much as 80 percent of CO2 emissions during the daytime at a natural gas fired power plant," said GreenFuel CEO Cary Bullock. "Unlike typical agricultural biofuel feedstocks such as soybeans or corn which have a limited harvest window, algae multiply every hour can be harvested every day."

GreenFuel and APS have been conducting a field assessment program over the past 18 months, and have moved into the next phase of study with the construction of an Engineering Scale Unit that will be completed in first quarter of 2007. "This project holds great promise as we look for ways to meet the energy needs of the second fastest growing state in the nation while maintaining a successful economy, quality lifestyle and healthy environment," said Ed Fox, APS' Vice President of Communications, Environment and Safety.

About Arizona Public Service Company
APS, Arizona's largest and longest-serving electricity utility, serves about 1 million customers in 11 of the state's 15 counties. With headquarters in Phoenix, APS is the largest subsidiary of Pinnacle West Capital Corp. (NYSE: PNW)

About GreenFuel Technologies Corporation
With more than a dozen pending patents, GreenFuel Technologies Corporation is the leading developer of systems for recycling rich CO2 streams from power and/or manufacturing plant flue gases to produce biofuels such as biodiesel, ethanol or methane. The company, which was founded in 2001, is headquartered in Cambridge, Massachusetts. For more information, visit www.greenfuelonline.com.
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http://www.aps.com/general_info/newsrelease/newsreleases/NewsRelease_358.html

Algae - like a breath mint for smokestacks
By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

BOSTON - Isaac Berzin is a big fan of algae. The tiny, single-celled plant, he says, could transform the world's energy needs and cut global warming.

Overshadowed by a multibillion-dollar push into other "clean-coal" technologies, a handful of tiny companies are racing to create an even cleaner, greener process using the same slimy stuff that thrives in the world's oceans.

Enter Dr. Berzin, a rocket scientist at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. About three years ago, while working on an experiment for growing algae on the International Space Station, he came up with the idea for using it to clean up power-plant exhaust.

If he could find the right strain of algae, he figured he could turn the nation's greenhouse-gas-belching power plants into clean-green generators with an attached algae farm next door.

"This is a big idea," Berzin says, "a really powerful idea."

And one that's taken him to the top - a rooftop. Bolted onto the exhaust stacks of a brick-and-glass 20-megawatt power plant behind MIT's campus are rows of fat, clear tubes, each with green algae soup simmering inside.

Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40 percent less CO2 (a larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86 percent less nitrous oxide.

After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials - one with algal biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation.

Being a good Samaritan on air quality usually costs a bundle. But Berzin's pitch is one hard-nosed utility executives and climate-change skeptics might like: It can make a tidy profit.

"You want to do good for the environment, of course, but we're not forcing people to do it for that reason - and that's the key," says the founder of GreenFuel Technologies, in Cambridge, Mass. "We're showing them how they can help the environment and make money at the same time."

GreenFuel has already garnered $11 million in venture capital funding and is conducting a field trial at a 1,000 megawatt power plant owned by a major southwestern power company. Next year, GreenFuel expects two to seven more such demo projects scaling up to a full pro- duction system by 2009.

Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry.

One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density - about 50 percent of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today.

Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University.

A prototype is capable of handling 140 cubic meters of flue gas per minute, an amount equal to the exhaust from 50 cars or a 3-megawatt power plant, Greenshift said in a statement.

For his part, Berzin calculates that just one 1,000 megawatt power plant using his system could produce more than 40 million gallons of biodiesel and 50 million gallons of ethanol a year. That would require a 2,000-acre "farm" of algae-filled tubes near the power plant. There are nearly 1,000 power plants nationwide with enough space nearby for a few hundred to a few thousand acres to grow algae and make a good profit, he says.

Energy security advocates like the idea because algae can reduce US dependence on foreign oil. "There's a lot of interest in algae right now," says John Sheehan, who helped lead the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) research project into using algae on smokestack emissions until budget cuts ended the program in 1996.

In 1990, Sheehan's NREL program calculated that just 15,000 square miles of desert (the Sonoran desert in California and Arizona is more than eight times that size) could grow enough algae to replace nearly all of the nation's current diesel requirements.

"I've had quite a few phone calls recently about it," says Mr. Sheehan. "This is not an outlandish idea at all."
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s03-sten.html





Finally another important point is the uk law on personal biodiesel usage has changed to have no extra tax. A litre of oil on a supermarket shelf could power your car in theory, take a look next time you are shopping and you should find its about half the price of the diesel fuel litre outside
 
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manveruppd said:
I vaguely remember reading an article in New Scientist about metal fuel a few months ago... is this the same thing?
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thats was metal hydride IIRC. Basically 'hydrogen sponges' for fuel cells.

So it's a means of storing energy, you still need to generate the juice elsewhere.
 
look on google video and you tube for free energy

there are alternatives out there.... we are slaves to the oil companies and it sucks
 
Meh.. the oil conglomerates will pay for some "research" to "prove" it is bad for the environment.

Oh wait, they did that for bio-fuels already.
 
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