Want to know where all the money went?

Basher · 24 Jul 2012 at 11:45

Hatter The Mad said:
People who create a business. But so what? You're jumping one step ahead. They wouldn't be in a position to create a business and employ people if it wasn't for demand from society.

Clever companies help create the demand. We don't need most of the things we buy, but we buy nevertheless because the businesses convince us that we do. They engineer the story from latent pain into a vision on why we need their product.

The video really only tells half the story.

Hatter The Mad · 24 Jul 2012 at 11:54

Basher said:
Clever companies help create the demand. We don't need most of the things we buy, but we buy nevertheless because the businesses convince us that we do. They engineer the story from latent pain into a vision on why we need their product.

The video really only tells half the story.

That's... fundamentally wrong. Without a society to sell to (a society to create demand), there would be no business. If society didn't have a problem, there would be no business to create and sell the solution. You've got it ass-backwards.

Basher · 24 Jul 2012 at 11:59

Hatter The Mad said:
That's... fundamentally wrong. Without a society to sell to (a society to create demand), there would be no business. If society didn't have a problem, there would be no business to create and sell the solution. You've got it ass-backwards.

It isn't wrong. Did people want an iPad before it came out? No, not really. Did they once they saw how cool and flashy it was? Yes.

Most of the customer I speak to day-in day-out don't initially think they need what we're selling - until we convince them they have a problem.

Society often has a problem, but needs businesses to convince them that they do. Business help drive innovation and create shape/create demand.

Hatter The Mad · 24 Jul 2012 at 12:08

Basher said:
It isn't wrong. Did people want an iPad before it came out? No, not really. Did they once they saw how cool and flashy it was? Yes.

Without people's demand, Apple wouldn't have a demand to fulfil. Simple.

Basher · 24 Jul 2012 at 12:10

Hatter The Mad said:
Without people's demand, Apple wouldn't have a demand to fulfil. Simple.

Businesses help create the demand. Simple.

Without Apple, there wouldn't be a tablet industry like there is today. There would be less jobs as a consequence.

Hatter The Mad · 24 Jul 2012 at 12:12

Basher said:
Businesses help create the demand. Simple.

Without Apple, there wouldn't be a tablet industry like there is today. There would be less jobs as a consequence.

I think you're fundamentally wrong.

Apple hasn't created demand. It hasn't put money into the pockets of society. It hasn't created a society in which an iPad would be fitting. Society and the demand was there first - if it wasn't, Apple wouldn't have sold any.

Dj_Jestar · 24 Jul 2012 at 12:15

Basher said:
It isn't wrong. Did people want an iPad before it came out? No, not really. Did they once they saw how cool and flashy it was? Yes.

Most of the customer I speak to day-in day-out don't initially think they need what we're selling - until we convince them they have a problem.

Society often has a problem, but needs businesses to convince them that they do. Business help drive innovation and create shape/create demand.

Just because people are ignorant to a solution to a problem does not mean the business that created the tool generated the demand.

How can anyone want something if they don't know it exists? Cavemen didn't want spears until they knew what they were. They wanted something to hunt/kill/defend with. The Spear satisfied that demand.

Modern man didn't want the combustion engine until they had been told about them. The demand was for transportation (and a ready supply of kinetic energy) that was more efficient than horse-drawn carts and steam engines.

Man didn't want the telephone until someone invented one. The demand was to quickly communicate with someone at long distance.

The tablet/pocket PC market is satisfying a very big demand - a demand for easy access to the internet - a tool in itself that is a solution to the demand for information.

Businesses are responding to demand. Person A shouts "I have a problem, and I'll pay for a solution" so businesses respond with "Well how about this tool/solution?"

Basher · 24 Jul 2012 at 12:23

Hatter The Mad said:
I think you're fundamentally wrong.

Apple hasn't created demand. It hasn't put money into the pockets of society. It hasn't created a society in which an iPad would be fitting. Society and the demand was there first - if it wasn't, Apple wouldn't have sold any.

Ok, perhaps creating demand was a little strong, but businesses certainly tap into latent demand and bring it to the fore. Without demand of course there would be no business. But with no business there be no demand fulfilment or jobs.

Basher · 24 Jul 2012 at 12:27

Dj_Jestar said:
Just because people are ignorant to a solution to a problem does not mean the business that created the tool generated the demand.

How can anyone want something if they don't know it exists? Cavemen didn't want spears until they knew what they were. They wanted something to hunt/kill/defend with. The Spear satisfied that demand.

Modern man didn't want the combustion engine until they had been told about them. The demand was for transportation (and a ready supply of kinetic energy) that was more efficient than horse-drawn carts and steam engines.

Man didn't want the telephone until someone invented one. The demand was to quickly communicate with someone at long distance.

The tablet/pocket PC market is satisfying a very big demand - a demand for easy access to the internet - a tool in itself that is a solution to the demand for information.

Businesses are responding to demand. Person A shouts "I have a problem, and I'll pay for a solution" so businesses respond with "Well how about this tool/solution?"

Yes - you're absolutely right and my positioning in previous posts was a little incorrect. Demand is created with the consumers but fulfilled by the businesses. It is the businesses that create the jobs.

Hatter The Mad · 24 Jul 2012 at 12:33

Basher said:
Yes - you're absolutely right and my positioning in previous posts was a little incorrect. Demand is created with the consumers but fulfilled by the businesses. It is the businesses that create the jobs.

No: society creates jobs by creating the demand which businesses are set up to fulfil. Businesses do not create jobs (if they did, by your pretty simpleton definition, we could all become CEOs and solve the unemployment crisis overnight... because businesses create jobs, right?).

Basher · 24 Jul 2012 at 13:02

Hatter The Mad said:
No: society creates jobs by creating the demand which businesses are set up to fulfil. Businesses do not create jobs (if they did, by your pretty simpleton definition, we could all become CEOs and solve the unemployment crisis overnight... because businesses create jobs, right?).

How many jobs would there be without businesses? Yes of course we could all become CEO's and solve the employment crisis, but that doesn't mean that we'd be adding all that much to the economy.

Hatter The Mad · 24 Jul 2012 at 13:08

Basher said:
How many jobs would there be without businesses? Yes of course we could all become CEO's and solve the employment crisis, but that doesn't mean that we'd be adding all that much to the economy.

We're going around in circles. If you cannot see the utterly basic and simple causation that without society's demand there wouldn't be businesses and therefore wouldn't be jobs, then there's no point trying to rationalise you out of something you didn't rationalise yourself into.

Basher · 24 Jul 2012 at 13:10

Hatter The Mad said:
We're going around in circles. If you cannot see the utterly basic and simple causation that without society's demand there wouldn't be businesses and therefore wouldn't be jobs, then there's no point trying to rationalise you out of something you didn't rationalise yourself into.

That's because it's a cycle. Businesses need societies demand to create jobs. Society needs businesses to fulfil their demand through jobs.

Whilst society may create jobs, it is business that employs people to be in those jobs.

Dj_Jestar · 24 Jul 2012 at 13:27

Basher said:
How many jobs would there be without businesses? Yes of course we could all become CEO's and solve the employment crisis, but that doesn't mean that we'd be adding all that much to the economy.

Just as many as there is today. Do you honestly think that if we arbitrarily took away all businesses (ignoring the fact that this is impossible to do, because "businesses" are just entities that trade.. i.e. you and I also fall in this category) that demand would just end?

How the hell do you think we got here in the first place? Because magic men told us to do it?

Basher · 24 Jul 2012 at 13:32

Dj_Jestar said:
Just as many as there is today. Do you honestly think that if we arbitrarily took away all businesses (ignoring the fact that this is impossible to do, because "businesses" are just entities that trade.. i.e. you and I also fall in this category) that demand would just end?

How the hell do you think we got here in the first place? Because magic men told us to do it?

Call them what you want, demand fulfillers give people jobs.

Dj_Jestar · 24 Jul 2012 at 13:39

People get paid to work on behalf of someone else. I'm a software developer. My boss is a software developer. He pays me to take on some of his work load because he can't do it all, and frankly I'm a better software developer than he is. He has a demand, I have a solution. I take money from him in exchange for lending him my services. Likewise, I have a demand for money because that's what everyone else wants from me in return for their products and services that I have a demand for. My boss is much better at managing/selling services/being a director than I am, and he takes care of any of my own accountancy needs. I don't want to do my own accountancy, thus I have a demand for someone to do it for me. Instead of employing my own accountant, I let my boss handle it (i.e. I use his provided solution)

Thus the world goes round.

elmarko · 24 Jul 2012 at 13:44

Basher said:
That's because it's a cycle. Businesses need societies demand to create jobs. Society needs businesses to fulfil their demand through jobs.

Whilst society may create jobs, it is business that employs people to be in those jobs.

Demand can be filled by any entity, the government can fill it via a nationalised industry (energy in the UK historically).

An individual can fill a demand by doing something independently (growing food in the garden to cut out the middle man).

The demand isn't intrinsically linked to businesses - they are simply one entity which can exploit the demand to generate profit.

The key point is that the business world can't take credit for demand & job creation to justify an excessive percentage of the reward for the work done, it's a flawed justification - one which is expressed with a clear motive.

As stated earlier, they only employ people when it's absolutely required - they have no loyalty to keeping the population in employment.

Calabi · 24 Jul 2012 at 18:30

Its why we're screwed when their able to build robots that are able to replace humans in the majority of jobs.