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We saved you in WW2

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by 2013, Feb 12, 2020.

  1. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,006

    There was also the fact that Ukrainians and Byelorussians welcomed the Germans as they hated Stalin and if the Germans had not been as racially orientated they could have used these people in their war effort. Instead they treated them as the enemy but so did Stalin when these areas were recaptured. Stalin was not a forgiving person.
     
  2. Panos

    Perma Banned

    Joined: Nov 22, 2009

    Posts: 13,200

    Location: Under the hot sun.

    That's false. Germany did have a plan and crushed the Soviets all way to Moscow within 6 months. But the attack that should have taken place in February 1941, pushed to June 1941 and the Germans got bogged down in the middle of the worst winter Russia seen since Napoleon invaded the country.

    Why the attack was pushed to June 1941, you need to study the reasons forcesd Germany for the "Balkan campaign" which ended with the Battle of Crete. :)

    Let me laugh hahah :D

    Europe would be speaking German today, if Britain had signed the peace treaty, Mussolini wasn't greedy in Oct 1940 (see above) and Hitler didn't insist against all advice to split his army attacking Moscow to 3 pieces, heading on different directions (Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow).
    And ofc we all need to thank the Norwegian resistance for destroying SF Hydro. Otherwise all was lost if Germany had nuclear bombs on March 1944.
     
  3. 2013

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 29, 2012

    Posts: 2,871

    Not what I meant, What I meant was if germany did not make the mistake of the initial attack that forced Russia to switch sides.


    So mostly if's :D:D.
     
  4. Panos

    Perma Banned

    Joined: Nov 22, 2009

    Posts: 13,200

    Location: Under the hot sun.

    hmmm USA might be speaking Russian :D

    Which was impossible :p
    Britain & Russia even went to the extend to invade Iran just in case it supplied with oil Germany :D
     
  5. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,990

    There was no "forcing" Russia to switch sides. Both Germany and Russia knew that the Molotov-von Ribbentrop Pact was going to break at some point; the question was only ever which of them would break it. If Hitler hadn't attacked Russia in summer 1941, it was very likely that Stalin would have attacked Germany in the autumn when the Russian winter removed any chance of a successful counter-attack. It would certainly have happened by the start of 1942, as Hitler declaring war on the US would have been too good an opportunity for Stalin to to pass up.
     
  6. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,006

    Stalin did not want to attack Germany. He was getting good foreign currency from Germany for oil and minerals. He expected Germany to attack him in a few years but was hoping that the reforms the Russian military were undergoing would be complete before then. It was actually the mistake of Churchill sending troops to Greece that delayed the German invasion by months. This mistake meant the Germans could not get to Moscow before the winter(and of course attacking Leningrad which had no military or economical importance.
     
  7. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 67,964

    In the realm of what ifs it would have been interesting what happened if Denmark had been allowed to prepare to defend themselves against Germany (though likely in that eventuality either Germany wouldn't have invaded them or gone in harder) but for the short time they were engaged in combat with the Germans they were hitting them pretty **** hard.
     
  8. ebilcake

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 18, 2007

    Posts: 1,006

    The Soviets would have won eventually on their own, it would have taken a lot longer. The question is without the Allied army would the soviets have liberated Europe or taken control.
     
  9. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,006

    A lot of Danes would have died. Germany would have invaded. What country bordering Germany was not invaded?
     
  10. do_ron_ron

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 10,006

    Yup they would have won, probably only six months later and Stalin would have taken control of whatever he could.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  11. EdGey

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Jan 21, 2008

    Posts: 8,050

    Location: England

    A very interesting point. I suppose, on consideration, the world got rather lucky with the introduction and use of nuclear weapons before reaching this state.
     
  12. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 6,133

    Just remind them they only won independence as the French helped them. That in itself is like the ultimate shame. Helped by the French.....just goes to show how **** America really is :)
     
  13. Lokwyr

    Gangster

    Joined: Nov 9, 2018

    Posts: 127

    Location: Poole

    Just a thought...
    Britain and Germany seemed to have a need to conscript school-leavers?

    That aside, the last war that USA truly won was Grenada.
     
  14. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,636

    I have an image of David Starkey delivering that 'shame' line. Old school exceptionalism, distinctively high Tory Oxford perspective on history that is extremely popular in the English university system and many historical texts from that school of history.
    The greatness of a nation is measured by its exceptionalism or lack of relationship with its neighbors.
     
  15. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 6,133

    No school like the old school...though ask any old timer.

    We have enough issues trying to solve issues created by ancestors that should just be forgotten, whats done is done.
     
  16. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,636

    Why I used the term. Not a Starkey fan but the old school whig or high tory style. Fine historians, you don't need to believe everything said to retain a fondness


    for the ancestors of modern history.