What is the historical evidence for Jesus?

However if you just restrict it to that one point you end up with effectively two posts in a thread because that is all there is. :D

Obviously it doesn't due to the amount of posts about the quality of evidence, types of evidence and the way you need to approach the requirement of evidence when looking 2000 years back at a person not an event. Which I think is quite interesting :D
 
1. Jesus is not a deity. He may or may not have been a real person.

2. The story of Jesus is plagiarized from other religions far more ancient than Christianity. This goes beyond Judaism. The bulk can be directly traced to Egyptian religion and worship of the sun god, Horus, who happens to share many important features with Jesus. These features are so identical, the issue cannot be due to coincidence. This is not to say that Horus is the only Pagan god with similar features, but he is one of the most identical to Jesus. Others might be Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus, Attis, or Zoroaster.

3. All of the story of Jesus is astrology. He dies on a cross. The sun in the winter solstice on December 25 hangs in a constellation known as the crux. Then it is “born” after 3 days of seemingly hanging in the same spot and starts to set in a different place going further North each night. People were so fearful in the winter that the sun would not came back that they celebrated its return, and the end of the continual shortening of days. When it is born, the North star lines up with Orion’s belt, composed of three stars known as the “three kings”. In sum, this is all that the resurrection is. Nothing more. There was no real cross and no real dying savior. All of that mumbo jumbo was a template for other theological ideas, such as sin and salvation, to take root.

Inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph, the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts.

This is unscientific, unacademic nonsense without a shred of credibility or even a single a scrap of evidence to support it. You will not find even one professional, peer reviewed scholar in a relevant field who takes these ludicrous ideas seriously.
 
This is unscientific, unacademic nonsense without a shred of credibility or even a single a scrap of evidence to support it. You will not find even one professional, peer reviewed scholar in a relevant field who takes these ludicrous ideas seriously.

But it was on a youtube video, so it must be true!
 
Unfortunately both pro-religion and anti-religion supporters seem so focused on religion itself to actually step back and think that this thread isn't actually about that.

You are presuming you can separate the evidence for Jesus from any religious influence. That is something I think it is quite clear you can not do therefore you have to take the religious angle into consideration when weighing the evidence. You have to consider the epistemology.
 
This is unscientific, unacademic nonsense without a shred of credibility or even a single a scrap of evidence to support it. You will not find even one professional, peer reviewed scholar in a relevant field who takes these ludicrous ideas seriously.

Yet the bible is in the same state, yet that is credible? :rolleyes:

I'm not saying its true, like i said thats 20mins of searching, its interesting, but i cba to look further.

You seem to have this real problem with thinking outside of the box, are you the type of person who when told by a teacher " 2+2 = 4 " you believe it so hole heartedly there can be no other truth? There is no need to look into something regardless of its acceptability?

Yet people who think outside the box where capable of creating 2+2 = 5, so in the end is a person confined by the box an educated person or a close minded uneducated person?
 
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You are presuming you can separate the evidence for Jesus from any religious influence. That is something I think it is quite clear you can not do therefore you have to take the religious angle into consideration when weighing the evidence. You have to consider the epistemology.

No I'm not, I've said quite frequently that you should take into account the bias of the bible, and of course any other sources should be examined for bias, it's the only proper way to do it.

What I'm saying is that the evidence (or lack) towards the flood, or the 10 plagues, or whether Jesus was the manifestation of God is all irrelevant. But people don't seem to be seperating this aspect because religion is an emotive issue.
 
What I'm saying is that the evidence (or lack) towards the flood, or the 10 plagues ... is all irrelevant. But people don't seem to be seperating this aspect because religion is an emotive issue.

Well I don't see them as irrelevant. Surely something that has proven accuracy across a number of points is more likely to be accurate than one that has repeatedly shown to be false. Or do you not agree?
 
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Well I don't see them as irrelevant. Surely something that has proven accuracy across a number of points is more likely to be accurate than one that has repeatedly shown to be false. Or do you not agree?

I believe that an author that has inaccuracies should be regardly more closely before putting too much faith in.

But then the bible isn't all historical works, some are allegorical, some are poetical etc. Also, and more importantly, the bible doesn't have one author.

So yes, place less trust in an author, but the bible doesn't fit that criteria so each "book" should be regarded in isolation. J

ust because the author of genesis may have written allegorically that doesn't mean the letters of Paul in the New Testament should be regarded with the same criteria. They were written at different times, by different people, for different purposes and about different things. Therefore you must use different criteria to critically examine.
 
I believe that an author that has inaccuracies should be regardly more closely before putting too much faith in.

But then the bible isn't all historical works, some are allegorical, some are poetical etc. Also, and more importantly, the bible doesn't have one author.

So yes, place less trust in an author, but the bible doesn't fit that criteria so each "book" should be regarded in isolation. J

ust because the author of genesis may have written allegorically that doesn't mean the letters of Paul in the New Testament should be regarded with the same criteria. They were written at different times, by different people, for different purposes and about different things. Therefore you must use different criteria to critically examine.

Yes, and I am more than aware of that. However, you need to bear into account the person who chose to present those texts together and acknowledge their judgement. The bible is portrayed as a book and therefore it is hard to say it would be fair to judge one element of it without acknowledgement of everything else. Which does not necessarily mean acceptance.

By your criteria how could we judge anything? Would you throw away Nietzsche's works because he was raving mad when he wrote some of them or would you judge his whole message with knowledge of how his life changed his viewpoint.

Who is to say there is accuracy consistent throughout a single source? All we can do is to try and get as close as we can to the time of the person and the proximity of the person. But to completely discount something that is intrinsically connected is equally as daft as accepting one component of the bible as fact and then decreeing it all as fact.

Your argument would mean we would never use an encyclopedia or wikipedia and then these forums would be royally screwed. I mean if we had to evaluate every source without checking it's authenticity. A global check allows us to assume things with a degree of confidence of not.
 
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Yet the bible is in the same state, yet that is credible? :rolleyes:

I made no comment about the credibility of the Bible.

I'm not saying its true, like i said thats 20mins of searching, its interesting, but i cba to look further.

Well that was ****** obvious.

You seem to have this real problem with thinking outside of the box

No I don't, and you have no basis for this accusation. You don't even know me. What I do have is a good education and enough knowledge in this field to know that the copy/pasted claims referred to earlier are simply ********.

are you the type of person who when told by a teacher " 2+2 = 4 " you believe it so hole heartedly there can be no other truth? There is no need to look into something regardless of its acceptability? Yet people who think outside the box where capable of creating 2+2 = 5, so in the end is a person confined by the box an educated person or a close minded uneducated person?

All claims should be tested objectively. No argument there. But your '2+2=4 vs 2+2=5' analogy is simply ridiculous.

If you hold up 4 fingers and a thumb, and I tear off 3 of your fingers with a pair of pliers, your hand will be left with 1 finger and one thumb. No amount of 'thinking outside the box' is going to change that fact. And good luck with the pain.
 
Yes, and I am more than aware of that. However, you need to bear into account the person who chose to present those texts together and acknowledge their judgement. The bible is portrayed as a book and therefore it is hard to say it would be fair to judge one element of it without acknowledgement of everything else. Which does not necessarily mean acceptance.

By your criteria how could we judge anything? Would you throw away Nietzsche's works because he was raving mad when he wrote some of them or would you judge his whole message with knowledge of how his life changed his viewpoint.

Who is to say there is accuracy consistent throughout a single source? All we can do is to try and get as close as we can to the time of the person and the proximity of the person. But to completely discount something that is intrinsically connected is equally as daft as accepting one component of the bible as fact and then decreeing it all as fact.

Your argument would mean we would never use an encyclopedia or wikipedia and then these forums would be royally screwed. I mean if we had to evaluate every source without checking it's authenticity. A global check allows us to assume things with a degree of confidence of not.


There is an element of truth in what you are saying, however it is common with multiple texts to treat each individually, it is also common with ancient texts to treat each separate contextual subject separately as well, Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews is a good example of where each element within the text is authenticated and judgements made on it's reliability therein.

The problem is that you make the very common mistake in assuming that the Bible is considered as a single Book, it is not, even the title "Bible" infers that it is a collection rather than a single tome. Much depends on what you are trying to accomplish, if you are making a historical assessment of the Bible then each part would be taken in isolation, even within some of the texts themselves certain aspects may be treated in isolation, This is not to say that they are not compared to and assessed against the other elements of the Bible or from other external sources. Quite the contrary, it simply means that for the purposes of assigning authenticity and assigning reliability each is treated separately to one degree or another.

However if you were making a theological assessment of the Bible then you would treat each Testament individually as well as each Book within each testament...you would also see how they relate to each other and other extant texts theologically, you would not generally assess them in isolation, although as we see often in GD people do that all the time, which is kind of ironic considering some peoples opinion on how the bible should be judged.

That is not to say that a Historian or a Linguist doesn't consider the whole and how each passage relates to each other, to extant sources, external texts such as those related to Heresiology etc... Linguists especially look for repetition and similarity especially when trying to ascertain context from texts attributed to the same author or groups of authors, time periods, cultural periods and so on.....

The problem with the Bible is that it was never meant to be a history book as such, it was simply a consensus of Early Christian and Hebrew writings that was thought portrayed the message common to Christianity at the time....it was never designed to be historically accurate or a treatise such as Tacitus' Annals or Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews .

There is much to be learned about ancient history in the Bible, and there is a lot that will not match up to archaeological or other historical and source text evidence, although any ancient historian or archaeologist will tell you that both of their fields are subjective to a great degree and the same with regard the Bible.

Pretty much anything prior to the end of the Ancient Classical Period with Justinian I is subject to significant interpretation and often it is only by consensus(you should see just how much argument there is over the significance of a single letter or word amongst my peers, let alone a whole passage or document) that events and people are deemed to have reliably existed at all.
 
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