What type of fuel in the future

[Glaucus]

What currently available electric car (full sized not a radio control model) takes only 20 minutes to fully charge?

Fast/super/rapid charge, it's not a totally full charge usually around 80%, Tesla S 160mile range in 30mins and these charging times are decreasing at a fast rate.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/0...harging-station-wont-shock-the-electric-grid/

And UKs first one
http://www.printweek.com/news/1114429/rcs-installs-uks-first-electric-vehicle-rapid-charge-station/

And in devlopment, just one exampale of many
http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk...10/12/nissan-develops-10-min-ev-super-charger

Fiat doblo in 10mins 43KwH battery pack by a company in Oslo.
http://wn.com/oysteinholm

Large scale real world example in china
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/29/byd-ev-fleet-rapid-charge-batteries-show-no-capacity-loss/

Hardly a done deal, there are very few electric vehicles on the road and there charging infrastructure is minimal at the moment. Add in the lengthy charging times and the limited range and it's not going to happen any time soon unless there is a revolutionary break though in battery technology (very unlikely).

It is a done deal , how long do you think it takes to change infrastructure over. The legislation, roadmaps and investment is there, the swap over is happening. The amount of EV cars on the road ATM is neither here nore there.

Want an electric bus? Well we can have them to.

BYD claims that its eBUS-12, with has a claimed range of 300 kilometers (186.4 miles), can travel further on a single charge than any other electric bus available today. At the core of the eBUS-12 is BYD's massive 324-kWh lithium iron phosphate battery pack that takes just over three hours to juice up with 100-kW charging equipment and approximately 30 minutes to refill with BYD's monstrous 600-kW proprietary rapid-charging system. That's a lot of juice.

More than enough mileage for most buses which have a predefined short circular run, especially with a charge over a break.

There's also a huge and when I mean huge probably 20+ fast charge/high density battery's under devlopment. So will only post a few.

http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/v6/n5/full/nnano.2011.38.html

enabling fabrication of a lithium-ion battery that can be 90% charged in 2 minutes.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_...battery-prototype-in-2013-production-in-2020/
500mile range

It's considered the holy grail of electric vehicle technology because it offers a theoretical energy density more than 1,000 times greater than the typical lithium ion battery you'll find in a Nissan Lea

With several concepts under their belt, IBM expects to reveal a working prototype of the lithium air battery in 2013. If all goes according to plan, IBM expects full commercial production of their technology in 2020.

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/11/batteries-energy-kung.html

A team of engineers has created an electrode for lithium-ion batteries -- rechargeable batteries such as those found in cellphones and iPods -- that allows the batteries to hold a charge up to 10 times greater than current technology. Batteries with the new electrode also can charge 10 times faster than current batteries.

 

[nanospider]

1) Find Higgs boson
2) Figure out how to generate/control Higgs particles
3) Build zero point energy field manipulators (remember the gravity gun in HL2?)
4) Bolt manipulators to cars

Or we could just invent the portal gun, that'd work too!

 

[Ricochet J]

In the immediate future the fuel will still be petrol/diesel/gas powering efficient combustion engines coupled with combined cycle gas turbogenerators at the exhaust outlet to charge batteries - that is it'll be a clever hybrid reducing the dependency of having to recharge batteries at home.

Effectively, the automotive industry are taking proven clean and effecient power station technology and applying it to vehicles. And why the hell not? If the operational experience is there then it should be adopted.

BMW, Mercedes, VAG, and Ford are looking into this. Last I read BMW are eager to implement this technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosteamer

 

[rpmmatt]

Future is electric, no doubt, just need the tech to catch up. Will either be battery, engine generator powering motors, or fuelcell. Each has advantages and disadvantages. We need to stop using oil, not because its running out(there is enough for few centuries yet) but purely for economic/political reasons.

Electrics still suffer the massive flaw of not being able to leave a city. Hit the motorway and your stuffed, despite the miracle claims of the people marketing electric cars, they still can't go anywhere near far enough and take to long to charge.

I will buy a battery electric car as soon as they make a large estate(Volvo 850 size) that can go for 500+ miles on a 5 minute charge. Until then, I will stick with diesel despite the cost. Hydrogen gets round the range/charging time issue, but would need MASSIVE investment in infrastructure, as well as being energy demanding to produce. I am tempted by the Vx/Opel Ampere, ideal comprimise that fits the real world, but would be interested to see what actual mpg's it gets in the real world. Last alternative that seems sensible to me is a third rail or catanery system on major trunk roads. Batteries round town then grid power on the motorway. I can't understand why the transport industry hasn't lobbied for this yet, as would save them a fortune.

As for where the power comes from, please read on Thorium nuclear reactors. Thorium is a very safe form of energy generation, needing only an area the size of football field to yield enough Thorium to power the entire planet for a year. Cheap safe thorium energy, used to either charge batteries or generate hydrogen.

 

[kaiowas]

I will buy a battery electric car as soon as they make a large estate(Volvo 850 size) that can go for 500+ miles on a 5 minute charge.

If you had a 500 mile range you'd have no need for ultra low charge times. Hardly anyone in this country does 500 miles in a day so overnight charging would be more than acceptable for a car with that kind of range.

 

[rpmmatt]

If you had a 500 mile range you'd have no need for ultra low charge times. Hardly anyone in this country does 500 miles in a day so overnight charging would be more than acceptable for a car with that kind of range.

What do you do the time you want to drive 500+ miles? Rent another car for the day? Fly? Walk? I am off to Europe in June, on 800 miles each way, plus will be in a rural area for most of the time. 800 miles means a 5 minute stop half way in my current car. You can sod off if you think I am wasting a day of my holiday charging my car.

The issues is versatilty. You may not want the abilty very often, but its important its there. Effectivley unlimited range is what you get in a oil burner, not so in batteries.

 

[rjk]

My father works for one of the worlds largest energy (read: oil) procurement companies.
I am fairly certain that from the brief outlines he has given me that we will be using todays fuels for the remainder of my lifetime at least. I would like to be proven wrong.

I have done some calculations recently on my current consumption, based on costs.
If v-power rises above 1.50 per litre then I will seriously consider a switch to standard unleaded.

Every future fuel that has been presented, hydrogen et al has been proven uncommercially viable to implement.

Even if manufacturers start gaining success with alternative fuels, I would predict that the cost to change would remain prohibitive for both consumers and fuel companies alike.

 

[DAnDan]

The interesting thing is that a single technological breakthrough could turn this thread on its head overnight.

As much as it's unlikely, and as much as EVs appear to be leading the way at the moment, that's just because it's where most of the money is going. A nice breakthrough on either hydrogen production or storage could change the game overnight. Although, obviously the same applies to batteries, once somebody comes up with a quick charging, high density, and long-life battery then we're sorted in that respect.

Just playing devil's advocate here really.

 

[Glaucus]

What do you do the time you want to drive 500+ miles? Rent another car for the day? Fly? Walk? I am off to Europe in June, on 800 miles each way, plus will be in a rural area for most of the time. 800 miles means a 5 minute stop half way in my current car. You can sod off if you think I am wasting a day of my holiday charging my car.

.

With a tesla model s you would need to stop just three times with a total time just under 2hours.

300mile initial range, with every 30mins of rapid charging adding a further 160mile range.
So I assume in an 800mile trip you would stop a few times anyway. So extra stop time would be negelable. What would you do 200miles before a stop.

Let alone the batteries under devlopment. The ebus-12 can have a full recharge in 30mins.

snip.

EU want ~80% of cars to be EV by 2050 which I think could happen. Give it till 2020 and people will be. Very use to the idea and see EVs do work for everyone as well as 8years of devlopment and infrastructure. Then after that especially with fuel prices people will look at EV when buying new, rather than ICE

 

[Jonnycoupe]

What do you do the time you want to drive 500+ miles? Rent another car for the day? Fly? Walk? I am off to Europe in June, on 800 miles each way, plus will be in a rural area for most of the time. 800 miles means a 5 minute stop half way in my current car. You can sod off if you think I am wasting a day of my holiday charging my car.

The issues is versatilty. You may not want the abilty very often, but its important its there. Effectivley unlimited range is what you get in a oil burner, not so in batteries.

My guess would be stop at some point to rest?

That or hire a car for your trip. Or get a trailer genset.

I don't know, maybe manufacturers have no desire to product such niche products. What a waste of energy,material and electricity to haul such a range around when it's not needed.

 

[rpmmatt]

EU want ~80% of cars to be EV by 2050 which I think could happen. Give it till 2020 and people will be. Very use to the idea and see EVs do work for everyone as well as 8years of devlopment and infrastructure. Then after that especially with fuel prices people will look at EV when buying new, rather than ICE

I don't disagree with your points Glaucus, I think EV's will be here in 10-20 years time, just not yet. Another issue they need to solve is lifespan. Not everyone can afford a new car every 5 years. They to make sure cars are usable for 10-15years without the need for £1000's of battery pack replacements.

As for fuel price. Oil still costs peanuts. Corrupt governments taxing free movement is what your paying for. You have to earn £104 to buy £24 of fuel. If you think they are gonna let you run your EV for less money, your living a fantansy world.

 

[rpmmatt]

My guess would be stop at some point to rest?

That or hire a car for your trip. Or get a trailer genset.

I don't know, maybe manufacturers have no desire to product such niche products. What a waste of energy,material and electricity to haul such a range around when it's not needed.

Niche product?? You mean, something pretty much every single car in existance can do is niche. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I guess a could fly(cheap and polluting), hire a car(exspensive and polluting), pull a battery pack trailer(not very effiecent).

 

[Glaucus]

You don't need a new car every 5-10 years, you would need battery packs that. Are falling in price. Or you can do what Renault are doing and just rent the battery pack.

Most EV battery packs have a 100,000 mile/8year warranty.

Even if they taxed it at same level, EV would still be cheaper. Not only is electric cheaper it is hugely more effecient, so it would need a much higher tax rate before it was comparable and that's not going to happen Untill a significant portion change. So early. Adopters could get a decade or more of significantly cheaper motoring.

And yes 800mile is very niche, reserch has been done and I can't remember exact figures, but the feast portion of scooter would be fine with the 100mile slow charge EVs. As most trips are a few miles shops/work extra and even long commutes you have 8hour charging time at work.
Let alone vehicles like the Tesla Model S and super charging.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I should have said niche usage but a 800mile EV will be a niche product.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Niche product?? You mean, something pretty much every single car in existance can do is niche. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Thats right, niche.

Hardly anyone makes 800 mile trips by car. It's exceptionally rare as a proportion of total journeys made.

 

[Tute]

I pray to god it's not electric. I mean yes, it's all nice and clean and everything, but I don't want a silent car and I don't want one with an artificial engine sound either.

I'm hoping hydrogen ICE takes off personally.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I pray to god it's not electric. I mean yes, it's all nice and clean and everything, but I don't want a silent car

Sounds lovely.

In what way is the drone your current car makes preferable to silence?

 

[Glaucus]

Sounds lovely.

In what way is the drone your current car makes preferable to silence?

Exactly, for most people noise is a pollution. And petrol heads at some point in distant future will just have to have a weekend car for that hit.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I can't think of anything nicer for wafting around town than an electric 5 Series.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I can't think of anything nicer for wafting around town than an electric 5 Series.

Electric XJ