*Whats the future for diesel engines*

[Orionaut]

Yep keep all the stinking, filthy polluting ones and stop people buying the cleaner ones, what a sound plan.

There are no ideal solutions here. This is a situation that is entirely the fault of successive governments. manufacturers and owners have been driven to follow thier lead and in many cases have had NO CHOICE over what vehicles they could buy.

This being the case, any solution has to be fair and just. It is not the diesel owners fault and existing owners should not be punished for successive governments failings and stupid policies.

Seen any petrol Vans recently?? No of course not. It would be monstrously unfair to heap large tax and fuel duty's on somebody who (Say) bought a diesel transit 18 months ago. Especially since such a policy would crush any trade in value making the vehicle almost impossible to replace.

My argument is to essentially de-diesel the PLG market over a period of 15 years or so.

Top that end, new diesel vehicles in this class should be discouraged.

A "Scrappage scheme" for older vehicles should be implemented, but it should essentially simply be a buy back. The people getting the buy back payments should be able to use the money to buy a s/h petrol (Or even however they please) , not simply to offset against a new car.

As has been said, the sort of person driving around in a £1000 diesel is never going to be able to buy a nissan leaf however big the subsidy might be

People with newer vehicles should not face the "Double whammy" of higher running costs and plunging trade in values.

"Natural Wastage" will see most small diesels off the road within 15 years or so and the small number that might remain after this time will not represent a significant issue.

There is still likley to be a useful market for light commercial diesels (Vans etc) but generally these are larger vehicles that physically have more room for exhaust treatment systems that would be impossible in Golf sized vehicles.

 

[lordrobs]

I know that the emissions of modern diesels are far better than they used to be but what are the emissions like during a DPF regen cycle? My Focus smells like it is coal fired while doing an active regen (which I catch it doing quite often) and it is quite a common occurrence while walking around to come across the tell tale signs of a regen on motors as they drive around.

It is the older ones that smell like they are burning coal that I wouldn't be sad to see the back of. Those and the "no smoke, no poke" types who see tuning up their TDI's to the point where a freshly cleaned car has the back coated in soot within 20 minutes as a badge of honour.

I think currently we are in a media hype bubble and things will tone down a bit but I may well use it to my advantage when company car time comes around as I'd much rather have a petrol or petrol hybrid.

 

[Orionaut]

I know that the emissions of modern diesels are far better than they used to be but what are the emissions like during a DPF regen cycle? My Focus smells like it is coal fired while doing an active regen (which I catch it doing quite often) and it is quite a common occurrence while walking around to come across the tell tale signs of a regen on motors as they drive around.

.

I have wondered about that.

It seems obvious that they might be, but are the emissions of a modern diesel running badly (Which many seem to do when driving behind them) really better than those of an older one running well?

Though I have been unable to find figures relating to really old diesels (1990's before emission tech became an issue) I do have the feeling that a Modern diesel engine pushing out anything up to 100BHP/L is intrinsically more likely to produce more Nox and fine particulates per HP/Hr than an old school one pushing out only 30/40 BHP/L and that it is only the exhaust after treatment that makes them look better.

As has been demonstrated these after treatments dont work anything like as well in the real world as they do in the Lab, and that is even without deliberate manufacturer manipulation, and if they are removed, the consequences are likley to be even more severe.

The obsession with CO2 over the last 20 years (And the treatment of fuel as a cash cow for the treasury) really has generated so much fail.

 

[Nasher]

They are better because modern filters capture a lot more of a the particles. But they are still much worse than petrol for kicking out harmful stuff.

 

[Diagro]

Well firstly the emissions test will be a mandatory part of the MOT so it will be an instant fail if you refuse to let the garage test your vehicle.

Secondly the testing equipment is out there now, we have been testing the systems that will go to market and making sure they are reliable and consistent.

None of the systems need anything dismantling or attaching to the car, it is a probe that is put into the exhaust pipe exactly like the current emissions testing equipment.

The systems will be out there within a few months, and the MOT will be changed to reflect it by the end of this year.

Forgive me as i ignore you.

Until i see this with my own eyes and i actually hear it from people within the MOT Industry i will take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Forgive me as i ignore you.

Until i see this with my own eyes and i actually hear it from people within the MOT Industry i will take it with a pinch of salt.

To be fair it's likely that 'People within the MOT industry' wouldn't find out until it's decided and communicated to testers anyway.

 

[darknite]

I wish there was more information so people could make a choice about their next car now rather than waiting to find out how diesels will be hit. I own a 2012 Insignia diesel and very nearly changed car to a petrol astra last weekend. Before this anti diesel stuff my plan was to change my car mid 2019 when I will be well past the 100k mile warranty.... I do worry come December whatever the government do the price of my car will plummet and changing will be far more difficult.

Some kind of staggered scrappage scheme depending on car age would be good though. Allow people to change over time, say diesels older than 6 years get it? Though I would personally need a scheme where I could use the money on a secondhand car rather than a new one.

 

[[TW]Fox]

What will do more harm than anything to residual values is people constantly banging on and fear mongering about what might maybe happen.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Yep keep all the stinking, filthy polluting ones and stop people buying the cleaner ones, what a sound plan.

Fine - I'll scrap my diesel if YOU buy me a suitable replacement... and I do mean one that does everything my current demon does.

As has been said, the sort of person driving around in a £1000 diesel is never going to be able to buy a nissan leaf however big the subsidy might be

I can vouch for that!!

"Natural Wastage" will see most small diesels off the road within 15 years or so and the small number that might remain after this time will not represent a significant issue.

How's all this going to work with Classic and Vintage vehicles, anyway?
Are they all to be made lifeless, undriveable hunks of junk?

 

[Participant]

I've used 10ltrs of adblue in 2000 miles in the Ranger. I can see this getting annoying.

The thought of also having to fill my diesel up with adblue is easily enough to persuade me to buy a less fuel efficient petrol engine on its own, let alone the quieter more refined engine.

 

[Nasher]

That seems like a lot of adblue, I don't think they normally use that much.

 

[chaparral]

However, with diesel emissions linked to 9500 annual deaths in London each year,.

So how many deaths a year was there back in the 80's or 90's before diesel cars had DPF filters and petrol cars had catalytic converters and low emission outputs and before the smoking ban in public places/workplaces etc etc ?

 

[Hiijinx]

Owning a euro 5 diesel which I bought just before the whole VW scandal, I honestly thought it was the right thing to do so am quite annoyed at the current fear mongering.

Recently, out of interest I actually looked into the figures of owning an electric car and was really quite disappointed in just how impractical they are.

For a Renault Zoe, probably the cheapest usable car available today would cost £70 a month just on leasing the battery, for that you could quite easily run a small petrol and not have the downsides of range - not to mention the high initial cost. So the only real plus I can see is for bragging rights on how eco they are, forgetting of course the pollution those batteries cost to make.

And don't even get me started on the BMW i3... The cost of the battery replacement works out about the same as fuel would over those 5 years.

I am sceptical to believe this is purely about the enviromnent, rather than also stimulating the economy, as surely if they were that concerned about it they would think up cleaner alternatives which actually made sense. Or even by making free yearly services mandatory, for the relatively lost cost of a service it would keep a lot of those black smoke emitting bangers off the road.

If the government refused to pay for the services, they could be made into an incentive for motorists by giving them a % discount on tax/insurance.

Until they can improve on electrics (and more importantly, where the electricity and batteries come from in the first place) I cannot see diesel going anywhere.

 

[chaparral]

For a Renault Zoe, probably the cheapest usable car available today would cost £70 a month just on leasing the battery, for that you could quite easily run a small petrol and not have the downsides of range - not to mention the high initial cost. So the only real plus I can see is for bragging rights on how eco they are, forgetting of course the pollution those batteries cost to make. .

Plus the cost of the electricity needed to charge it..

(plus am guessing you would have to pay for a waterproof plug socket to be fitted outside your house near to where you park the car)

 

[Maccapacca]

That seems like a lot of adblue, I don't think they normally use that much.

I've looked. It's at the lower end of the range but my foot is usually on the carpet and it's been chipped.

 

[Bear]

Fine - I'll scrap my diesel if YOU buy me a suitable replacement... and I do mean one that does everything my current demon does.

Waaa waa whine like a child The point I was making was Orionauts odd logic of wanting discourage new diesel vehicles which are getting cleaner all the time with each new euro revision but happy everyone drives round in their filthy versions when the whole debate is about diesel pollution.

As much as I would love the old crappy diesels being taken off the road for everyone's health, I know it isn't reasonable, and as an aside I actually own a diesel but it isn't a filthy soot spitting one.

 

[Joe T]

Some of the early Adblue systems didnt use as much Adblue as they were set-up more for a 'test environment' I believe. Obviously that is not going to wash any more so the ones that actually work properly use a LOT of Adblue. Bigger tanks, more frequent top-ups etc are going to be the norm now.

 

[Orionaut]

They are better because modern filters capture a lot more of a the particles. But they are still much worse than petrol for kicking out harmful stuff.

That is my point, It is my belief that A "Decatted" modern diesel is likely to be an intrinsically much worse polluter than an old school, low specific performance, one that never had any pollution control in the first place.

The "Warmist" agenda has transformed diesel engines from something that was admittedly a bit smelly but at the same time was also reasonably benign into something that is now really quite harmful and whose harmfulness is only partially mitigated by pollution control technology.

We might well have been be a whole lot better off had we just left well alone.

Fine - I'll scrap my diesel if YOU buy me a suitable replacement... and I do mean one that does everything my current demon does.

I can vouch for that!!

Again, this is an important issue.

Just today I saw somebody who was exactly the sort of person who would be badly affected by any retrospective diesel taxation policy. (I considerer changes in fuel duty to be "Retrospective" in this context)

Elderly, Disabled (Blue Badge) 20 year old Mondeo 1800TD. (Immaculate condition) 130,000 miles. (Probably only does 4-5000/year currently, if that)

He would never be able to aford to buy a new car.

Increased transport costs would detract from other parts of his life (Food, domestic heating, socialisation), If he was forced to give it up he would be completly housebound.

Punishing him for owning an old diesel, after 20 years of state propaganda telling us all how wonderful they are and how they are going to save the planet, would be massively unjust.

 

[Maccapacca]

Some of the early Adblue systems didnt use as much Adblue as they were set-up more for a 'test environment' I believe. Obviously that is not going to wash any more so the ones that actually work properly use a LOT of Adblue. Bigger tanks, more frequent top-ups etc are going to be the norm now.

Apparently you can't just pee in the tank either. Which is a shame as it's just urea and water

 

[Orionaut]

Apparently you can't just pee in the tank either. Which is a shame as it's just urea and water

Exactly, Shame really since it is really Just **** in a bottle! :/

#mostexpensive****ontheplanet

Quick Edit to add...!

Is **** considered a profanity these days, really??

Oh dear....