Where do I stand

Minibiker · 27 May 2017 at 08:30

Hi all

I work as a warehouse operative Monday to Friday contract 1:30am-10am...

My manager has put me on a Rota to go in on a Sunday.... I've spoke with him about not doing it and he says he can sack me for not coming in..

My reasons are, I can't get childcare for my 15 month old son... I'm a family man and I see my weekends as free time to spend with my son...

Where do I stand at times like this? He surely can't sack me if I don't turn up...

Scrutinize · 27 May 2017 at 10:27

You need to inform them in writing asap that you are the main carer for your child on Sunday and you are not able to work that day.

Check the company policy on this, it should be in the hand book.

They will be entitled to change your working days though. But it has to be reasonable notice and allow you sufficient time to arrange child care. Unfortunately unless you have a disabled child your long term options are limited.

The outcome will depend on your contract terms, company policy and who the employer is.

Chances are you will have to work it after reasonable notice unless the employer is prepared to agree that you don't. It is reasonable for the employer to expect you to provide alternative child care even if it's paid for.

x-st · 27 May 2017 at 10:50

How long have you been employed by the company? If it's under 2 years I believe you are very limited in terms of employment rights.

Minibiker · 27 May 2017 at 10:57

x-st said:
How long have you been employed by the company? If it's under 2 years I believe you are very limited in terms of employment rights.

I've been there 6 years and only done 1 Saturday but that was in my first year

Scrutinize · 27 May 2017 at 11:33

Minibiker said:
I've been there 6 years and only done 1 Saturday but that was in my first year

Duration of service is irrelevant to this issue. It depends on company policy and your terms of contract. Have you done what I said re informing them yet?

Minibiker · 27 May 2017 at 11:38

Scrutinize said:
Duration of service is irrelevant to this issue. It depends on company policy and your terms of contract. Have you done what I said re informing them yet?

I will get it written up and give it to my employer ASAP... He wants me in Tonight but I physically can't do it as my wife goes to work early weekends.. He knows the situation as I'm good mates with him but hes now becoming bit of a douche... He says give my son to family for tonight but my family live in Bristol (40 mins away) he says i can leave early 7am (shift 4am-10am) i dont see the point in sending my son all the way there for me to work 3 hours then go get him

Rroff · 27 May 2017 at 11:42

How much notice have you had? regardless of what the contract says if you've worked one pattern for a considerable length of time then legally there is a reasonable minimum notice they have to give you unless you agree otherwise - after that though the law is on their side :s

Scrutinize · 27 May 2017 at 11:49

Minibiker said:
I will get it written up and give it to my employer ASAP... He wants me in Tonight but I physically can't do it as my wife goes to work early weekends.. He knows the situation as I'm good mates with him but hes now becoming bit of a douche... He says give my son to family for tonight but my family live in Bristol (40 mins away) he says i can leave early 7am (shift 4am-10am) i dont see the point in sending my son all the way there for me to work 3 hours then go get him

He has to give you reasonable notice but you need to confirm what your contract and company policy says. If you can, refer to this in the letter.

Be very clear when putting in writing that you are main carer for your child this weekend and they have not provided you with reasonable notice for a change of shift.

Very simple but clear letter, only needs to be a couple of sentences long.

Have limited further discussion with your line manager on this even if you know him.

You have to be fairly circumspect on these matters.

They can't dismiss you and certainly not immediately, they may try to take a formal disciplinary which they will lose on this basis; but ultimately unless their company policy says otherwise you will need to work their new shifts at some stage.

Very few managers or supervisors know their company policies in the extent they need to, or the terms of your contract. It's always hassle, stressful and often distressing though when they do this sort of thing.

Minibiker · 27 May 2017 at 11:49

Rroff said:
How much notice have you had? regardless of what the contract says if you've worked one pattern for a considerable length of time then legally there is a reasonable minimum notice they have to give you unless you agree otherwise - after that though the law is on their side :s

He told the whole team about 3 weeks ago but hadn't wrote the Rota up until last week.... I think its a joke how employers nowadays expect you to be committed to them 110% over your family... to me my family is more important in life than bloody boxes :mad:

Minstadave · 27 May 2017 at 11:50

Are you a union member?

Minibiker · 27 May 2017 at 11:52

Minstadave said:
Are you a union member?

No not been in the union from the start but never had issues before... Must be Swindon people.. they all seem a bit :confused:

...

Scrutinize · 27 May 2017 at 11:57

Minibiker said:
.... I think its a joke how employers nowadays expect you to be committed to them 110% over your family... to me my family is more important in life than bloody boxes

This is very true and something I fully agree with. It really winds me up when companies don't; but sadly they can get away with it and in many jobs like yours they can simply replace the staff.

Unfortunately companies are entitled to put the company first. You are just a number to them, nothing more.

Minibiker · 27 May 2017 at 12:00

Scrutinize said:
This is very true and something I fully agree with. It really winds me up when companies don't; but sadly they can get away with it and in many jobs like yours they can simply replace the staff.

Unfortunately companies are entitled to put the company first. You are just a number to them, nothing more.

Yeah that's all he keeps saying "if you don't like it then leave as there's plenty of agency people asking for jobs" :mad:

What really frustrates me is the fact he says he needs to give his son to his mum so he can work weekends but he seems to avoid the point that i state, His family live here mine dont :mad:

Scrutinize · 27 May 2017 at 12:07

Minibiker said:
Yeah that's all he keeps saying "if you don't like it then leave as there's plenty of agency people asking for jobs"

What really frustrates me is the fact he says he needs to give his son to his mum so he can work weekends but he seems to avoid the point that i state, His family live here mine dont

He is likely under the same pressure as you but from his line management sadly.

Minibiker · 27 May 2017 at 12:14

Scrutinize said:
He is likely under the same pressure as you but from his line management sadly.

It wouldnt surprise me.. this company I becoming a joke, even drivers that have been here for years are leaving... I'm tempted to not go in Tonight

Rroff · 27 May 2017 at 12:14

You really need expert advice here with all your details - when similar happened to me - despite a contract that gave them a lot of flexibility to change shifts - in arbitration they were told that I was actually entitled - if I didn't agree to the change - to notice of a week for every year I'd worked there upto a maximum of 12 weeks, before they could force the change, due to having worked a set pattern for so long and not the 4 weeks notice that was in the contract (which they'd ignored). But that won't necessarily apply depending on all the details.

They tried to claim the initial consultation (about 10 weeks earlier) where it was only "might be changing" rather than the point at 6 days from the change where they said it was definitely happening counted as notice and they were told in definite terms it didn't count. (I'd have been quite happy with 4 weeks personally but was put on the spot by 6 days notice of a significant change in shift pattern and there was absolutely no way I could do the first change of shift).

(Company didn't seem to understand that you can't just make significant and potentially financially costly changes to your life on a maybe).

Minibiker · 27 May 2017 at 12:17

Rroff said:
You really need expert advice here with all your details - when similar happened to me - despite a contract that gave them a lot of flexibility to change shifts - in arbitration they were told that I was actually entitled - if I didn't agree to the change - to notice of a week for every year I'd worked there upto a maximum of 12 weeks, before they could force the change, due to having worked a set pattern for so long and not the 4 weeks notice that was in the contract (which they'd ignored). But that won't necessarily apply depending on all the details.

They tried to claim the initial consultation (about 10 weeks earlier) where it was only "might be changing" rather than the point at 6 days from the change where they said it was definitely happening counted as notice and they were told in definite terms it didn't count. (I'd have been quite happy with 4 weeks personally but was put on the spot by 6 days notice of a significant change in shift pattern and there was absolutely no way I could do the first change of shift).

Do they need to give written notice of changing it or me working this day... It's classed as Overtime for me so technically not my working day

Rroff · 27 May 2017 at 12:24

Would depend on your contract and if/how much needs to be changed - a proper verbal consultation where they've sat down with you is enough if the contract gives them the appropriate leeway on changing shifts. The problem is there are a number of aspects outside of the written contract which can make things complex without proper advice i.e. duty of mutual trust and confidence which unreasonable suggestions about childcare solutions and not taking your concerns about appropriate childcare onboard might come under.

Minibiker · 29 May 2017 at 13:15

@Scrutinize I am about to write the letter you mentioned above...can you give me some idea of what to write in it please...

Also is it best to write 2 copies and keep one myself so he can't say he hasn't received anything

Scrutinize · 29 May 2017 at 19:57

Have you confirmed what your employee handbook/company policy and contract says yet?

I see you mentioned this is overtime, if I read that right. Technically they can't make you work overtime but if you don't you may lose the option to do it.

Keep it brief and to the point.

Main carer child, insufficient and unreasonable notice.

It's your choice next depending on whether these are contracted hours of overtime as to whether you want to work it or will be contractually required to.

What they can't do is dismiss you for it. Notice of the rota changing does not qualify as notice of the specific change unless they told you it would be Sunday. Furthermore this had to be in writing from them. Saying they told you 3 weeks ago for example is not acceptable.

As for how much notice they need to give you that can depend on a number of factors and your contract. The longest they would be required to serve a change in terms and conditions is 12 weeks. I suspect it will be as required or as per your contract notice in their terms and conditions/policy.

The problem is, you can fight it and you have considerable employee rights but; it costs time and money and unless they try to dismiss you or undertake a disciplinary, the outcome will be you, at some stage will need to work it (unless it's overtime and not contractual hours).

The key question here is what outcome do you actually want?