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Who says aio cooling is crap?

Discussion in 'Overclocking & Cooling' started by hlennie, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. doyll

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2011

    Posts: 7,172

    Sorry, but when you make false statements like you just did I will continue to post what is factual/truthful.

    There are many things definitely different between AIO and CLC than just a fill port.
    They also have
    threaded fittings on all components
    hose fittings that the hose can be shorted and/or changed components
    components can be removed/added as needed.
    have copper radiators while CLCs all have aluminum radiators
    some have quick disconnect fittings in the lines.

    AIOs that are not CLC also have definitely different pumps than CLCs do. They are not Asetek or any other CLC OEM. Swiftech AIO pumps are basically one of their lower end component pumps, can't remember the model number right now. Aphacool AIOs includes be quiet! Silent Loop and Fractal Design Kelvin (no longer being made) AIOs. The Alphacool Eisbaer uses one of their DC-LT pumps on older units and new ones use Eisbaer LT (Solo) pump found in link below.
    https://www.alphacool.com/shop/cpu-cooler/intel-amd/20228/alphacool-eisbaer-solo-2600rpm-black

    Newer Alphacool Eisbaer use Eisbaer LT (Solo)
    https://www.alphacool.com/shop/cpu-cooler/intel-amd/23937/alphacool-eisbaer-lt-solo-black?c=20571

    Below is a link to video of user replacing the pump in his older Alphacool Eisbaer AIO..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzdisSGcJBE

    Along with Alphacool Aisbaer series there are Aisbaer LT with quick disconnect fitting inline to make it easy to add/remove extra components and Eiswolf GPU AIOs.

    Alphacool also have GPU waterblocks with quick connect fittings already filled with coolant to be mounted on GPU and connected into Aisbaer loop.

    Hopefully once you look at all these other AIO lines you will begin to understand why we have AIOs and CLCs and why people like AsetekDennis use AIO and CLC for the respective coolers they are and not lumping them all into one group. ;)
     
  2. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 7,619

    Location: Reading, UK

    Those who've had CLCs fail and blow their boards or cards, due to issues that maintainable AIOs would have prevented, would certainly disagree with you... As I recall, those frequent CLC failure rates are what gave rise to AIOs in the first place.

    No-one's labelling them as bad... just nowhere near as good as other options!

    Well, long as you're happy with it, I guess.... I'd be pretty livid if ever I saw 60ºC, personally.

    Of course you do.
    I would have when I had an AIO. I know better now... and enjoy much lower temps even with much hotter kit.

    IIRC, they were all called AIOs until manufacturers started making ones that were not closed, at which point they invented the CLC term to differentiate between the types.
     
  3. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 1,787

    Location: Baa

    "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

    I'll change my mind when my cooler gives me good reason to or stops performing so well, or I see good evidence of other people's failing in significant numbers.

    I'm not going to fear a problem that doesn't exist. That would be madness.

    Why?
     
  4. doyll

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2011

    Posts: 7,172

    I agree with what you've said above!

    I will only add that Swiftech was making and selling ther H200 AIOs when Asetek patented the concept of pump on waterblock in factory built system. Asetek filed suit against Swiftech forcing them to quit making/selling their product in USA. If I remember correctly Cooler Master continued with same basic AIO call Glacier. Yeah, below link is about this.
    https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/swiftech-h220x-water-cooling,news-46875.html
     
  5. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 1,787

    Location: Baa

    Bimetallic corrosion isn't really a problem. It happens so slowly that it's insignificant. Car radiators are exposed to a much greater mixture of metals and they last for donkeys years.

    I can see the desire for a fillport but honestly these things are such low-maintenance - mine is 1.5 years old now and performs as well now as the day I installed it, and it has a 5 year warranty - I have to ask myself whether a fillport really matters. Anyway, my Nepton has a capped-off fillport with a "do not remove" sticker on it so there's no reason why I can't top it up if needed once the warranty expires. The fillport is on the rad too, not the block like on some, so it should be much easier to fill and bleed without removing the block.

    Who knows, I might fancy a change by then anyway. :)

    Honestly, they're only coolers. I don't get all the fuss. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  6. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 7,619

    Location: Reading, UK

    Which doesn't help if you're having breakfast cereal...

    Plenty of threads on here about it. Corsair AIOs had a real spate of failure at one point, my own included.

    https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1390163
    https://forums.evga.com/Anyone-had-their-CLC280-pump-fail-m2721389.aspx
    https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/4b6xtk/discussion_a_word_of_warning_about_corsair_clc/

    I haven't seen temps that high since before I went custom loop.

    We've butted heads often enough that I know when you're talking **** and when you're not! ;)

    Not everyone has a stack of high spec spare PCs knocking around, or can afford to just re-purchase their current rig. That loss can be quite a hefty hit, especially if you're on a budget.
     
  7. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 7,619

    Location: Reading, UK

    Interestingly, the new Deepcool Captain 240 Pro has a wonderful mechanism that promises the device will never leak... which would seem to suggest such a thing was common enough for them to design against it. In this case it's just a rubber capsule that will compress to absorb some internal pressures, but still it's only guaranteed for a limited period.
     
  8. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 1,787

    Location: Baa

    Most people don't worry about CPU temps of 60C, nor do their AIO's leak.

    I thought the whole "AIO's leak" hysteria died a long time ago.

    Edit:
    I'm not sure the links help your argument much. The first one is a thread from almost 2 years ago which discusses cooler failure but makes no issue about how frequently they fail. In fact one post even says that he's never seen a PC destroyed by a leaking cooler and the last poster says how long he's been using his AIO's without any problems at all. :confused:

    Edit2:
    Second link: A customer posting a thread about a fault (pump failure) on a manufacturer's forum. Just one, no mention of it being a widespread issue. In fact, one poster even praises AIO's in general! "The AIO from 2012 on this build is corsair h100.
    Maybe worth mentioning my previous xeon machine (Evga sr-2 with 2x x5650 at 4+GHz), had been folding 247 from 2011 to 2017 with two corsair h70. Since 2017 it's been running as a gaming rig for my godson... Man, now thinking about it, what awesome products those AIOs were/are!"

    Edit3:
    Third link: a thread warning people about the fuctionality differences (i.e. nothing to do with reliability) between two revisions of a particular Corsair cooler. :confused:


    It helps if you actually read through the content before posting links in support of your argument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  9. doyll

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2011

    Posts: 7,172

    Majority of CLC failures are coolant level and/or pump problems.

    I agree, leak problems are not biggest problem, low coolant levels and pump issues are. I've opened up a few dead CLCs and all showed significant corrosion as well as gunk (probbably organic growth), with damage especially in the cold plate microfin area. Also found significant damage to pump in many of them, probably because of low coolant level with pump running dry and overheating.

    Comparing automotive engine and their coolants to CLCs is a stretch at best. Major differences like massively different temperature ranges, types of additives, as well as materials used in them. Also, most automotive coolant specialists recommend regular changes. Most recommend 30k/2 years service even for 'life time coolant'. I change mine every couple years, and brake fluid .. and automatic transmission fluid too. Standard transmission and differential oils last longer.

    I'm not playing his game.
    Most of use know and agree the difference between AIO, CLC and custom loop is CLCs are sealed during manufacturing process with no provision to open and add coolant. After all Closed Loop Cooler is what CLC stands for. ;)
     
  10. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 1,787

    Location: Baa

    AIO failures aren't common enough to worry about. Even if you look across all models by all manufacturers, the number of failures is insignificant when when you consider the huge number in circulation. I'm sure we'd hear a lot more from users if there was a real underlying problem with them but in threads like this there are always far more satisfied AIO users than unhappy ones.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  11. doyll

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2011

    Posts: 7,172

    I don't have any data on what the failure rate is, but I do know it's many times higher than that of air coolers costing about 2/3rds as much, run quieter all while cooling just as well. I know many people think CLCs are great, there are many who got a CLC awhile ago that have died so they got a top tier air cooler and have temps as low or lower with less noise and plan to never use another CLC.
     
  12. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 1,787

    Location: Baa

    Of course there will be some people who feel that way but they must be in a very small minority of AIO users because you hardly ever hear from them in threads like this (as this thread and the ones ttaskmaster linked to demonstrate). The vast majority of people who post have very positive experiences with AIO's, which is quite something when you consider how folk are usually much more likely to share bad experiences than good.
     
  13. martian1

    Associate

    Joined: Oct 20, 2014

    Posts: 87

    Hi all after a near disaster with a custom loop fitting failure I am done with it and would appreciate a couple of Aio models recommendations I am leaning towards the Arctic freezer with the 360 rad after reading some disgruntled owner reviews of the latest Corsair models. Help advice appreciated. I am PC less at the moment so need something pretty quickly. I am also not really interested in fancy led lighting requiring bloatware to run the thing.
    Thanks
     
  14. deuse

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 17, 2007

    Posts: 18,647

    Location: Solihull-Florida


    I went with Alphacool for both my CPU and GPU.
    alphacool-eiswolf-120-gpx-pro-nvidia-geforce-gtx-titan-x-pascal/1080-ti-m02-black and a
    Alphacool Eisbaer 280 CPU. It's easy to the connect the 2 together because of the Quick-lock closure.

    So now I have 2 rads and 2 pumps :)

     
  15. doyll

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 1, 2011

    Posts: 7,172

    Of the 3x links ttaskmaster supplied in post #33 2x are about CLC problems. As for numbers of people with problems, there are considerably more threads/posts of of CLC problems and failures than there are of upper level air cooing in cases with good airflow.

    As for longevity, even CLCs with 5 year warranty is only 1/2 or 1/3rd the potential life of a good air cooler with only the cost of replacing fan/s and maybe a mount update. I'm running a Thermalright Ultima 90 and a Ultra 120 (4x heatpipe) installed early 2007 that have only had fans and mount updates.

    You are lumping CLCs into same group as AIOs that are not CLC. Again, there are 2 kinds of AIOs, CLCs are the majority of all AIOs buy more a 10:1 ratio, maybe a 100:1 ratio. CLCs are also the most problematic. There are threads of users who have had problems, same as there are threads/posts of users who have gone from CLCs to top tier air.

    I would venture to guess that most CLC owners have little to no experience with top tier air coolers, nor do they understand the importance of proper case airflow. They saw the advertising hype of CLCs as water cooling and though of CLCs as budget custom loops and rushed out to get one, so when they post up about how great their CLC is, how it dropped their temps 10c and how much quieter it is, the comparison is of a case with poor airflow using cooler supplied with CPU .. a worst case situation. In most cases changing a stock case with stock CPU cooler to a CLC automatically adds 2x more fans to the case that came stock with 1x or 2x fans so have doubled or tripled case airflow by adding CLC.

    Owners of cases with good airflow and upper level air cooling don't even consider about buying CLCs.


    Most custom loop components are way better quality than AIOs and CLCs. CLCs are the absolute cheapest and poorest quality liquid cooling made. AIOs are better, but only as good as low end custom loop components.

    Depending on what case, motherboard and RAM you have you could get a top tier air cooler and couple of case fans for less money, cooling as good or better, less noise potential and much more dependable than AIOs/CLCs. If you are interested start a thread and we can help you sort it out.
     
  16. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 1,787

    Location: Baa

    Ttaskmaster posted those links to support his argument that AIO's are prone to failure. They clearly do not support that argument. I was expecting a lot more than a general thread about "what happens when a cooler fails", an individual case of a pump failure and a comparison of features between 2 AIO's.

    Onto your point about lifespan - well, we weren't discussing air coolers but seriously, so what if air coolers last for 10-15 years? I think most people are happy to replace their coolers a lot sooner than that.

    Back to failures again - you only need to look at the first page of the watercooling sub forum to see someone suffering a potentially catastrophic leak in their custom loop which they can't cure. Do you hear anyone slating all custom loops? Of course not.

    Now, when was the last leaking AIO cooler thread posted?

    I would bet that overall, more custom loops leak than AIO's, despite there being far more AIO's in use than custom loops. Yet ttaskmaster thinks AIO's are a far greater risk. :confused:

    BTW Doyll, you can insist on your own definitions for AIO and CLC coolers all you like but they really are pointless so I won't be using them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  17. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 1,787

    Location: Baa

    The trouble with air coolers is that you need fans on the cooler AND fans on the case. Without good case airflow they are toast because the dirty-hot air stays inside the case, affecting the other components and gradually ramping-up temps. That's a lot of fans.

    With an AIO you can get the dirty-hot air straight out of the case without it going anywhere near the other components, with just the fans on the rad. This means fewer overall fans, which is good. Neater, quieter and more efficient, especially in small builds where there either isn't physically enough room to fit a decent air cooler and/or all the required fans, or if you did it would look like arse or make accessing the other components very difficult.

    Anyway, everyone knows this already, it's old news.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  18. orbitalwalsh

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 1, 2015

    Posts: 12,701

    [​IMG]
     
  19. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 7,619

    Location: Reading, UK

    If you say so...

    "That is not a common issue on the H110i, but it can happen to any cooler. Not really a permanent solution if it does work, but it might buy you a little more time. 62C is pretty high though. Keep an eye on it".

    From Corsair themselves, on this very forum:

    You must have missed all the other comments on those links (mostly within the last 7-12 months, by the way) like:


    And a few from our own forum, right here, again pretty recent:


    Failures happen often enough that some manufacturers even have warranty cover for damage caused by leakages. I believe there are a few threads on that here, too.

    AIOs (CLCs specifically) are essentially the same as custom loops, but being sealed will lack the facility for user maintenance that custom loops require to keep them running well, so by that definition will be prone to failure. Add to that the above threads detailing common failure modes and the reasons for that, and you have your answer - Feel free to think you know better with your vast experience of.... just one AIO, ever, though.

    Of course you bloody well do!!
    Again, use the search function. Most who slate custom loops prefer air anyway.

    Custom loop failures are usually down to user error or failure to maintain, and 'own fault' is generally more acceptable to a user than errors in manufacture, since companies are supposed to design and build their AIOs to a high standard that eliminates such failure.

    Use the search function, like everyone else.
    I would assume it's happened recently enough for Deepcool to make one that "never leaks".

    I'd like to see these figures for ownership and failure rates, on which you base your claim... as well as where you think I ever said one was a greater risk than the other.

    Might wanna drop an email to the likes of 8Pack, as well as EVGA and Asetek, since they're all using the same definitions.... ;)
     
  20. Yadda

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2009

    Posts: 1,787

    Location: Baa

    So, where is the last post on here where someone suffered a leaking AIO?

    There's a custom loop failure on the first page of the water cooling forum.

    I'm not going to research your claims again. From past experience they're usually incorrect.

    Edit: Yup, as I thought. Plenty of Asetek coolers around advertised as AIO's. Dear me. (Edit2: and on the OCUK store all such coolers are listed as AIO, in the water-cooling section too which I imagine annoys the "they're not water coolers!" cultists even more).

    Anyway, you realise that most people don't care what you call them, right? You and Doyll can insist all you like but in the real world it makes no difference whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019