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Who should we let in - Ian Hislop BBC2

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Faustus, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,116

    Location: On the hoods

    OK, so draw me a line then. Apparently I'm on the good side of the line, and I'm allowed to stay, so that's great news for me, but what about everyone else?
     
  2. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 3,911


    It's down because we voted to leave the EU as a majority.... Not really rocket science and a desirable effect of those who supported leaving the EU
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  3. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 3,911

    The line is simple, unless your being really obtuse, anyone already legally here gets to call themselves British (English, Welsh etc) and has the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else. I don't claim to have any superior or different right to be in the UK or call myself British etc. However the UK should reserve the right to be sellective about who it let's in going forward and the aim should be for net neutral or negative migration.

    Simple enough for you?
     
  4. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,116

    Location: On the hoods

    OK, so we close the door now and everyone who's in so far is OK?

    Well, at least it's an answer.
     
  5. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 3,911

    I have to conclude you are deliberately misrepresenting my stated position... Par for the course?

    'However the UK should reserve the right to be sellective about who it let's in going forward and the aim should be for net neutral or negative migration.'

    We have the situation we have and need to work together as citizens of the country to improve our lot. No need however to actively make our situation worse
     
  6. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,116

    Location: On the hoods

    Yes, fair play, I didn't specifically acknowledge your suggestion of being more selective going forward.
     
  7. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 3,911

    Fair enough, I'll retract my perhaps hasty accusation given your quick clarification.

    Anyway that's my person view stated. I'm not anti immigration or against migration in general I'm just believe the numbers and cultural views brought to the UK matter
     
  8. MatteH Oxford

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010

    Posts: 1,506

    Location: Wiltshire

    Some staggering Government statistics here about the impact of immigration on housing. https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/424

    Just 37%? That's a huge number!
     
  9. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,116

    Location: On the hoods

    Housing has been a scandal in this country for decades. Any pressure exerted by migrants is only symptomatic of the sustained ineptitude of successive governments. It’s a poor show to look at it now and blame migrants for it.
     
  10. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,295

    Another issue with housing is the amount of brown field sites that are sitting there doing nothing. Instead developers are intent on taking more an more green belt land as it's much cheaper to develop. Governments of all colours should make developers re-use brown field sites.
     
  11. PapaLazaru

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 23, 2009

    Posts: 17,169

    And force the use of deliberately left empty houses.
     
  12. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 13,982

    Location: Lincs

    Well, the housing crisis is all you baby boomers fault for being so selfish.....

    (Says Sajid Javid :p )

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5088317/Cabinet-split-housing-Hammond-spar.html
     
  13. efish

    Hitman

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 790

    Heard a classic argument about the unemployed Romanian who lives at the end of the road.

    (a) "he is in the pub every day...... playing the fruit machines..... he gets all this money."

    (b) "That's not true... if he is getting benefit he will get £75 pounds a week."

    (a) "That's not true, they get extra money for the dog."

    Dogs on Benefit. Can't wait for the new channel 5 documentary on that.

    The amount of sheer nonsense people believe about our welfare system and the effect of migrants on it beggars belief.
     
  14. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,295

    I think the fact you are quoting the daily fail in Speakers Corner is pretty epic.

    The last thing we need is a lecture from Mr Spock. His own government's policies have helped put people where they are today so he should look a bit nearer home first.

    The real story here (as discussed on today's DPS) is not the 'baby boomers' it's the fact Tories are getting pretty nervous because they are in real danger of losing a whole generation of younger voters who all prefer Corbyn. They know they need to appeal to the younger voter and hope housing is the vehicle with which to do this. On the other hand by adopting this policy they are upsetting a huge section of their current core voters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  15. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 28,441

    Location: Canada

    Finally got round to reading the reply.

    So basically your complaint about immigrants and children of immigrants centres around muslims. What is the proportion of immigrants and children of immigrant that are muslim? No where near 100% for starters. In fact, only one of the top 5 countries of origin of UK immigrants is predominantly muslim (Pakistan) and only one more in the top 10 countries is predominantly muslim (Bangladesh).

    Well yes, if you're basically classing pretty much anyone with foreign ancestry in that category then of course you're going to get a high number. That's not a particularly big issue for most people however. Some communities do have their individual problems true, but majority of immigrants and children of immigrants do not. That's especially true when you consider that most children of immigrants, speak English, are all be taught in British schools, and will be no different than pretty much any white British child.

    So you might consider it depressing, yet you still haven't really answered the question satisfactorily. All you've really done is actually cherrypick a minority proportion of a minority of immigrants, complained about being called a racist and then espoused your "Britishness", which TBH I don't care about one iota. Being British is about who you are and what you do, not what whether your surname is "native" or whether you can trace you great(x10) grandfather back to a small village in England. If you really think the latter is important then it's fairly obvious you won't be happy if one parent of a child is not British, no matter what their attitude or achievement.

    EDIT: I'm actually in agreement with the comments about reducing population in the UK. The problem is we need to change the whole western economic system to make that feasible which is unlikely to happen any time soon unfortunately. My direct issue is your seeming obsession with "natives" and "foreigners". The UK is not going to be taken over by "foreigners" any time soon.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  16. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 3,911


    Oh dear....

    I gave the example I did (about the problems the adherents of Islam can bring) because you had said......

    'So whats the issue? The only difference I can see is they may have a different skin colour, non "traditional" British name and perhaps they may like "foreign" foods more than other white Brits.'

    A crude, reductionist assumption on your part that I opposed mass migration for such banal reasons as the taste in food, melanin count and surnames of immigrants.......

    You seem to tacitly accept that Muslim immigration may well be an issue otherwise why would it matter if 100‰ of immigrants coming into the UK were Muslims right?

    To answer your question about the number of Muslims in the UK..... They currently make up 5‰, of the overall population but with at least 8‰ of children aged 5-15 being muslims (2015 figures) with the numbers having nearly doubled in a decade... That's exponential style growth...

    Going from 50 thousand to over 3 million in the space of just over 50 years.


    Of course I picked a particularly egregious example of potentially problematic immigration to respond to your absurd claim that your perceived me to be racist based on the banal characteristics listed above. I could offer a critique of plenty of other cultures and religions that people may bring with them to the UK but we would be here for some time....

    I may not have answered the question to your satisfaction but then I suggest this is largely irrelevant given the assertions you make and questions posed.

    All I will say is to me it's apparent that if over 50‰ of the new population annually is immigrants or their children then the potential for them to be integrated into a wider cohesive society successfully within a generation or so is greatly diminished and we run a significant risk of ending up with a balkanised country with a number of disparate groups of people in conflict with one another.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  17. Rifte

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 17, 2010

    Posts: 2,667

    Location: Somewhere in Asia

    A business of mine focuses on the service industry of overseas immigration, specifically from SEA.

    I look to send professionals overseas to either Australia, Canada, NZ the US or the UK.

    As the 'facilitator' so to speak with clients at either end of my service it has been disappointing from my perspective that a large proportion (by all means not all!) of the candidates that I deal with in India, Bangladesh and Pakistan have a very straight forward motive of WHY they want to move overseas. As a general rule of thumb outside of a few sectors if you work for someone over here you are paid a pittance irrespective of your qualifications. Their expectations of what a 'decent' existence is, is so low that even working in typically low paid industries in a Western country appeals to them.

    I regularly perform seminars in many of the large cities in these countries to generate my lead bank, and these seminars are tailored to English speaking professionals. In short people that are educated, and in most cases very well educated. Postgraduate degrees are more common than not.

    The Australian, Canadian systems rely on a straight forward points calculator, and in many cases if these guys are able to demonstrate English proficiency in one of the main accepted examinations they will be in a position to apply for permanent residency in one of these countries without even stepping a foot in them. Permanent residency to individuals that will essentially (if granted the visa) allow them to fly there, clear immigration and stay there indefinitely without a job.

    The hope is that obviously these individuals will pursue a career in their trained profession, but the reality is for many of them is that they will go over there and get the first job they are able to get and remain there in the belief that their lifestyle is infinitely better than it was back home. Its cynical, but unfortunately this is the reality of the industry that I operate out of in SEA. A populus with a generally high tendency of having aspirations to migrate.

    The number one question is usually "What do I have to do to get me and my family over there?"

    In my experience Australia and Canada's immigration population from SEA isnt necessarily increasing its workforce in jobs that are 'needed'.

    In the case of a Brit going over to either country and going through the same process, of course in most cases it will be the opposite. Professionals will look to move sideways or upwards within their career, because of a completely different mindset.You have to remove that mindset to a large proportion of SEA migration.

    In the case of the UK its a different kettle of fish altogether with salary requirements etc under the Tier 2 scheme, and to get that certificate of sponsorship (which can only be given by an employer that is listed on the gov.uk website....granted its over 1900 pages long!). The UK simply isnt as appealing anymore to anyone outside of the EU because of the conditions attached, and consequently only about 5% of my lead bank is generated with an interest in moving over there because its that much harder. You need a job......and after post study rights came to an end on the back of a student visa the ability to get this whilst living in the UK also became alot harder.

    The US has a similar system in that an employer is required......

    Immigration to the US and the UK from SEA is usually based around two things. I am aware that this is a generalization, buts its from my experience.

    1)They have family over there that can sponsor their visa.

    2)They want to obtain a visitor visa and just disappear over there working for someone that they know through a friend of a friend of a friend. Off the grid......

    I think that we (the UK) have a relatively good control system to evaluate and limit non EU migration, its unappealing unless you are serious about your profession and your profession is serious about hiring you. In fact the only issue I have with it is the shortage occupation list not pushing Doctors etc onto Tier 1.....a professional frustration of mine at the moment.

    In respect of the EU.....well the barn door is open and the horse bolted last June. Unless there is a major shakeup in the rules surrounding immigration then they will all have to jump through this Tier grouping as well to work in the UK, and this is a GOOD thing.

    Controlled immigration and targeted towards those roles (and this will be fluid) that the country needs.
     
  18. C64

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 16, 2007

    Posts: 12,157

    Location: London

    those figures are clearly flat out lies is all I can tell you because I see it with my own eyes day to day

    2% muslim lmfao TRY 40%

    as for attitude the only stinky attitude I see is from middle class and upwards leftwing fascists who don't have to live around mass migration and the only migrants they have known are nice middle and upper class migrants from uni

    100% a class war is coming and it's because of the left pushing their lovey dovey melting pot wet dreams on to the rest of us

    how many remain voters are doing minimum wage jobs ? 0.00001%

    If we invited in 20 million white collar workers willing to do the nice cushy middle and upper middle class jobs they'd be burning down the streets rioting in richmond but because their jobs aren't affected it's fine to replace the british working poor with imported staff
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  19. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 11,662

    ROFL
     
  20. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 11,662

    I was in London two weeks ago by Old Street. Everyone spoke English, don't think it's a lefty area either. Waterloo was the same.

    To be honest I don't see the outrage at speaking other languages either. Germans don't get outraged when I speak English in their country.