Why is 'self-charging hybrid' being sold as a thing?

[kkelly]

Phev (outlander) can charge from the engine it's got a button

 

[MissChief]

So the first hybrid cars available were 'self-charging hybrids' and they are self-charging because the batteries are relatively small and the electric engines are relatively weak. This means they can only go a very short distance on electric only and usually under 30mph.

A step up from these are plug-in hybrids, with much larger batteries and much more powerful electric motors. These cars can typically go 20-35 miles on the battery alone.

So why, all of a sudden, is Toyota and Lexus advertising 'self-charging hybrids - no need to plug in' as a thing when a plug-in hybrid is better than a non plug-in? Is it just because many people believe hybrids have to be plugged in to charge? The message in the advert seems to be backwards as if it were suggesting self-charging hybrids are better than plug-in hybrids even though the opposite is true.

Because not everyone is able to charge a car? Not everyone, especially in city centres where hybrids make more sense has a driveway or underground parking? Many live in flats or apartment blocks and have no way to have a charge point so a self charging hybrid gives improved MPG which helps the environment.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

BUt most Hybrids do not specifically run the engine to charge the batteries, they will do this with excess energy. The range extender for the i3 is however a small engine that only powers the batteries, its not linked directly to the drivetrain.

Arguably all cars have had a mild hybrid effect since about 2005 when they started doing things link disconnecting the alternator when not needed to save fuel, but always running it when the engine was not driving the wheels.

But in reality self charging non PHEV is just a cheaper version of hybrid.

Simple summary
https://www.pocket-lint.com/cars/news/145879-self-charging-hybrid-phev-hybrid-cars-explained

 

[Kenai]

It seems to be sending the wrong message and has the potential to cause confusion if you don’t know any better.

See also: every marketing campaign ever?

 

[lordrobs]

While true, it's also causing some members of Joe Public to think that their self-charging hybrid is better than a PHEV as "they dont have to plug it in".

Maybe for them it is better. Maybe they have nowhere to charge it, or they do big miles where the electric only range of a PHEV doesn't make much of an impact to them, or they can't be bothered to go to the effort of having a charging point put in for just 30 miles or so of EV capacity...
A PHEV doesn't suit everyone, especially if they end up running it as a regular hybrid and never plug the thing in.

 

[BenhB]

With an Outlander PHEV, it's mostly inefficient to charge the battery from the engine. It costs more in fuel than you gain in mileage terms. You can get some gains when doing above 50 - 60mph, as the engine is already working, so it can charge at the same time. Running on electric at these speeds is pointless, as the battery is just drained so quickly.

 

[mattcrane]

Don't know about the sales hype but am looking forward to picking up my new C-HR Hybrid at the end of next month

 

[mrochester]

Don't know about the sales hype but am looking forward to picking up my new C-HR Hybrid at the end of next month

I’ve never been sure why they are so popular, they are very ugly cars! A bit like I’ve no idea how the Nissan Juke every became so popular.

 

[mattcrane]

I’ve never been sure why they are so popular, they are very ugly cars! A bit like I’ve no idea how the Nissan Juke every became so popular.

Not so keen on the Juke myself but I really like the C-HR and right now it suits my needs

I would rather go either full electric or plug in but I cannot afford a full electric that suits my needs, SUV, and plug in isn't practicable as landlord wont allow a charger to be installed.

 

[Dolph]

Why can’t a PHEV charge the battery from an idling engine?

They can, and some do generally the ones that were designed to be hybrids of some sort rather than having an electric motor and battery slapped on as a tax dodge.

Pushing plug in hybrids puts off people without access to charge at home, as without home charging they are pretty pointless, at best being a heavier self charging hybrid, often just being useful as a company car tax dodge.

The benefit of self charging vs non hybrid is energy recovery, store and reuse. Certainly on mine, the brakes do far more charging of the battery than the engine does, and that means more time with the engine not running constantly.

I've got an ioniq rather than a prius, which means electric only is still available even at 60-70mph (different drive train, very efficient dsg box rather than the planetary cvt of the Toyota hybrids which does pretty much limit electric only to 30mphish) and will go about 4 miles on electric only if the battery is full (but you don't actually want a full battery on a self charge, a full battery, unless you've just been down a long hill, means the car isn't using the stored energy, which isn't what you want), but I'm happy with 65-70mpg both in town and on longer journeys.

The hybrid market is a bit of a mess at the moment, but it's new and growing rapidly. Some companies are getting it right, some aren't.

 

[Dolph]

What’s the actual purpose of self charging? Is it just that they can run the petrol engine at it’s most efficient point on the curve whilst charging so that the energy cost of lugging the battery and motor about is “paid for” compared to just driving on petrol?

It's also about not running the ICE if it's not necessary. For stop start work, slow acceleration, maintaining current speed or going down hill, the ICE doesn't need to be running if you've got energy stored in the battery, so it doesn't, which is where the bulk of the fuel saving comes from.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

So the first hybrid cars available were 'self-charging hybrids' and they are self-charging because the batteries are relatively small and the electric engines are relatively weak. This means they can only go a very short distance on electric only and usually under 30mph.

A step up from these are plug-in hybrids, with much larger batteries and much more powerful electric motors. These cars can typically go 20-35 miles on the battery alone.

So why, all of a sudden, is Toyota and Lexus advertising 'self-charging hybrids - no need to plug in' as a thing when a plug-in hybrid is better than a non plug-in? Is it just because many people believe hybrids have to be plugged in to charge? The message in the advert seems to be backwards as if it were suggesting self-charging hybrids are better than plug-in hybrids even though the opposite is true.

you clearly don't own one. a self charging hybrid basically takes all your wasted energy and re-uses what it can.

for example when you are coming up to a roundabout, junction, traffic lights you are rolling or braking whilst doing this you are charging the battery. then when you are crawling through traffic or going low speeds you can switch to electric only. going downhill you can take foot off accelerator and let it charge your batter. braking slightly whilst rolling downhill is even better.

basically think of a self charging hybrid as a petrol car where all the energy is wasted is being recycled.

a plug in hybrid can only do 20-30 miles. what if i am driving 500 miles? that means 480 miles i am lugging around an electric motor and an electric battery which are offering me nothing at all. it's costing money to have them sitting there due to extra weight.

a self charging hybrid though on a 500 mile journey will constantly be using the electric part. on the lexus the electric motor kicks in at all speeds. not just under 30 mph. but electric only will only work under 30mph. as in no petrol at all. but using both electric and petrol together can work at any speed.

therefore if you want the clean aspect of petrol vs diesel but also want to be even more eco friendly and do long trips where you can't charge then a self charging hybrid is efficient for that use. my lexus hasn't dropped below 50mpg ever in my usage. and it's "petrol".

also what if you can't charge your plug in hybrid? you live in a flat. or you work somewhere which has no charging points?

plug in hybrids have a place but so does self charging. i personally don't see the point of plug in hybrid. why not just buy a fully electric car?

To be fair, I think most of the 'self-charging' comes from braking regen, which all electrified vehicles can do.

if you are a bad driver then yes it mostly comes from braking. the better the driver you are most of it comes from rolling or going downhill, etc. so using gravity or the extra power from the engine. when i'm in the lexus i try not to brake at all and completely change my style of driving to make most use of it's hybrid capabilities. if i stop in traffic i hit the EV only button.

This was my point. It seems to be sending the wrong message and has the potential to cause confusion if you don’t know any better.

if joe public like to drop £30K on a car without doing any research and base it purely off an advert then i need to start marketing magic beans.

I’ve never been sure why they are so popular, they are very ugly cars! A bit like I’ve no idea how the Nissan Juke every became so popular.

what? the toyota c-hr is really nice. are you confusing it with the honda hybrid which looks awful?

 

[mrochester]

you clearly don't own one. a self charging hybrid basically takes all your wasted energy and re-uses what it can.

for example when you are coming up to a roundabout, junction, traffic lights you are rolling or braking whilst doing this you are charging the battery. then when you are crawling through traffic or going low speeds you can switch to electric only. going downhill you can take foot off accelerator and let it charge your batter. braking slightly whilst rolling downhill is even better.

basically think of a self charging hybrid as a petrol car where all the energy is wasted is being recycled.

a plug in hybrid can only do 20-30 miles. what if i am driving 500 miles? that means 480 miles i am lugging around an electric motor and an electric battery which are offering me nothing at all. it's costing money to have them sitting there due to extra weight.

a self charging hybrid though on a 500 mile journey will constantly be using the electric part. on the lexus the electric motor kicks in at all speeds. not just under 30 mph. but electric only will only work under 30mph. as in no petrol at all. but using both electric and petrol together can work at any speed.

therefore if you want the clean aspect of petrol vs diesel but also want to be even more eco friendly and do long trips where you can't charge then a self charging hybrid is efficient for that use. my lexus hasn't dropped below 50mpg ever in my usage. and it's "petrol".

also what if you can't charge your plug in hybrid? you live in a flat. or you work somewhere which has no charging points?

plug in hybrids have a place but so does self charging. i personally don't see the point of plug in hybrid. why not just buy a fully electric car?

I’ve owned a hybrid Toyota Auris for nearly 4 years, I know how it works.

With a plug in hybrid, you get all of the benefits of a ‘self charging hybrid’ (regen. braking etc) and the ability to charge the car from an electrical outlet and the ability to drive for greater distances on electric only power.

The advertising is implying that a hybrid you don’t plug in is better than a hybrid you do plug in even though the opposite is the case. I suspect Toyota and Lexus are advertising in this misleading way because they either have poor or no PHEV vehicles in their lineup.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I’ve owned a hybrid Toyota Auris for nearly 4 years, I know how it works.

With a plug in hybrid, you get all of the benefits of a ‘self charging hybrid’ (regen. braking etc) and the ability to charge the car from an electrical outlet and the ability to drive for greater distances on electric only power.

The advertising is implying that a hybrid you don’t plug in is better than a hybrid you do plug in even though the opposite is the case. I suspect Toyota and Lexus are advertising in this misleading way because they either have poor or no PHEV vehicles in their lineup.

hybrids are built for city driving. a lot of people in cities cannot charge their cars. simple as that really.

 

[mrochester]

hybrids are built for city driving. a lot of people in cities cannot charge their cars. simple as that really.

Correct, but that doesn’t mean a plug in hybrid is worse than hybrid!

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Correct, but that doesn’t mean a plug in hybrid is worse than hybrid!

it is if you can't charge it

 

[mrochester]

it is if you can't charge it

I am referring to the cars themselves in isolation, I’m not considering the circumstances of the user. And even then a PHEV is only worse than a hybrid, even if you can’t charge the PHEV, because it’s likely to cost more to buy. There’s nothing technical about the vehicle itself that makes it worse. But that’s applying a value consideration, which isn’t part of this discussion.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

plugins can managed a lot more power in terms of reactive effort AND regen. So suggest you are carrying around stuff that doesn’t nothing for you when compared to a normal hybrid is daft.

 

[Dolph]

I am referring to the cars themselves in isolation, I’m not considering the circumstances of the user. And even then a PHEV is only worse than a hybrid, even if you can’t charge the PHEV, because it’s likely to cost more to buy. There’s nothing technical about the vehicle itself that makes it worse. But that’s applying a value consideration, which isn’t part of this discussion.

The phev version of my car is circa 250kg heavier than the hev, and loses 100 litres of boot space.

If you use a phev as a hev, you won't get quite the same mpg benefits, the top speed is very slightly lower, you carry less and it costs more.

 

[mrochester]

The phev version of my car is circa 250kg heavier than the hev, and loses 100 litres of boot space.

If you use a phev as a hev, you won't get quite the same mpg benefits, the top speed is very slightly lower, you carry less and it costs more.

Ok so let’s forget about the value proposition or whether you have access to a charging point or not and just compare the vehicles as if you can use both exactly as intended.