wind/tidal power generation..

[Glaucus]

With all the hype from the Energy Review and the green, political and scientists arguing what is the best way forward. It got me thinking. When we started burning fuels we had no idea what impact on the environment it was going to have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5166426.stm

So the question, If we had large scale wind farms, what impact would they have on the environment. I'm not taking eye sores or noise. But on a large scale would it suck out enough energy to change weather systems?

I know that we can never meet anywhere near 100% off are demand with renewable energy with current technology. And think that nuclear is the way forward.

Also discus anything about the energy review and alternative fuels (national grid or cars), but please try and stay away from a heated discussion about global warming.

 

[calnen]

No, the weather systems are powered by the sun heating the ground more than the air, causing air to rise and fall producing areas of different pressure, etc. You could never 'run out of wind' as it were. Likewise the tides are driven by the moon's orbit. Technically you're slowing that orbit down by removing the energy, but you could do it for a billion years with negligible effect so it's essentially a limitless power source.

The main problem with them is simply that they create very little energy compared to nuclear or coal power stations. You need an awful lot of wind turbines to run a city, and as some people think they look bad (personally I like them, very elegant ) not enough are built to have an impact.

 

[locutus12]

I know that we can never meet anywhere near 100% off are demand with renewable energy with current technology. And think that nuclear is the way forward.

not true, do you have any idea of the power that could be generated if every roof top had solar panels on it and every home was fitted with power storage and local power grid systems to feedback excess energy? it would be a huge ammount, combine that with hydro, wind farms, tidal generators and keep our current waste to energy plants (they burn household rubbish and create energy, they use acid sprayer to remove 95% of polutants from the smoke)

the only thing that stops us is the initial expense, how ever we seem to be able to pull a few billion out of a hat for the odd war, then theres the half a billion given the fraudsters from the tax credits, then theres the three quarters of a billion overspend in the NHS then theres the ten billion given to private companys since 1997 to revitalise the railways, huge ammounts of it wasted, then theres the 50 billion we spend on defence,

but no, we couldnt possibly go renewable, were told its to expensive...

 

[Dolph]

not true, do you have any idea of the power that could be generated if every roof top had solar panels on it and every home was fitted with power storage and local power grid systems to feedback excess energy? it would be a huge ammount, combine that with hydro, wind farms, tidal generators and keep our current waste to energy plants (they burn household rubbish and create energy, they use acid sprayer to remove 95% of polutants from the smoke)

You do know how much it costs to produce photovoltaic cells, both in financial and enviromental terms, right?

You also know that peak efficency on current consumer tech is about 10-15% at the panel terminals....

Solar is actually much more use for heating water than anything else (in fact my Parents are currently in the process of getting Solar water heating fitted to their home), but for electricity generation it sucks.

As for whether or not large scale renewable energy projects would effect the enviroment, the truth of the matter is that no-one knows, and most of those who claim it would have no effect are simply doing so because it supports their view. People used to say that coal or oil had no effect on the enviroment after all...

 

[Doosht]

i read once that if we covered the sahara desert with solar panels it would provide enough energy to power the world. I dont know how true that is but its a nice thought.

 

[rmuir]

Solar is actually much more use for heating water than anything else (in fact my Parents are currently in the process of getting Solar water heating fitted to their home), but for electricity generation it sucks.

what kind of system are they having fitted?

Really interested in this, can't afford it at the moment plus im in private rented accomodation. But for the near(ish) future i have to say that having some sort of self efficiency from the Grid would appear to be a very smart move.

Ground source heat pump systems have been most impressive, from what little research i have done.

 

[calnen]

i read once that if we covered the sahara desert with solar panels it would provide enough energy to power the world. I dont know how true that is but its a nice thought.

The question that arrises is how much energy it would take to make the things in the first place. Remeber they're made of glass and metal, both of which require an awful lot of power to produce (it takes a lot to melt sand and metal..) I think solar panels take rather a long time to pay for themselves in terms of energy.

 

[AS_Platinum]

Fusion is the way forward, only another 50years or so before it becomes commercial (thats if it works that is, ie: outputs enough than that is input-ed)

ITER in france then DEMO in japan, yawn yawn.

 

[calnen]

As for whether or not large scale renewable energy projects would effect the enviroment, the truth of the matter is that no-one knows, and most of those who claim it would have no effect are simply doing so because it supports their view. People used to say that coal or oil had no effect on the enviroment after all...

I assume thats directed at me
You're correct that I havnt exactly researched it, just used common sense I suppose.
Solar panels by definition couldnt affect the atmosphere, as all the energy you extract eventually gets returned to the environment anyway. (Thats where electricity ends up - look at a the fans in your pc..
I am just assuming that wind wouldn't have an affect, so suppose I could be wrong. I imagine there's been research into it if you want to prove thats the case (watch me be lazy..)

 

[locutus12]

You do know how much it costs to produce photovoltaic cells, both in financial and enviromental terms, right?

You also know that peak efficency on current consumer tech is about 10-15% at the panel terminals....

Solar is actually much more use for heating water than anything else (in fact my Parents are currently in the process of getting Solar water heating fitted to their home), but for electricity generation it sucks.

i think you may of gotten a little confused as their are several different types of solar panels for specific purposes, solar panels for heating water are not good for generating electricle power.

However An electricle generating solar panel system with a Photo Voltaic array tilted towards the south would generate approximately 750kW hours per year. So a typical 2 kW system (around 20 m2 of multicrystalline modules and smaller than the average size of a terraced house roof) would generate around 1500 kWh per year. although Output will be reduced by shade or non-optimal orientations or tilt angles.

thats a fair amount of power, enough to lower the average family electric bill of £75 a month by 60%

I think solar panels take rather a long time to pay for themselves in terms of energy.

the system mentioned here would take roughly 10 years to pay for its self.

Really interested in this, can't afford it at the moment plus im in private rented accomodation. But for the near(ish) future i have to say that having some sort of self efficiency from the Grid would appear to be a very smart move.

grants are available from the government to help you pay for the system.

 

[calnen]

the system mentioned here would take roughly 10 years to pay for its self.

Is that the cost of the installation compared to the money saved on your power bill, or the energy required to create the unit? I was referring to the energy.

 

[locutus12]

Is that the cost of the installation compared to the money saved on your power bill, or the energy required to create the unit? I was referring to the energy.

thats the cost of the install V money saved on your bill.

some interesting facts,

Africa

Africa is home to the over 9 million km² Sahara desert, whose overall capacity — assuming 50 MW/km² day/night/cloud average with 15% efficient photovoltaic panels — is over 450 TW, or over 4,000,000 terawatt-hours per year. The current global energy consumption by humans, including all oil, natural gas, coal, nuclear, and hydroelectric, is pegged at about 13 TW.

so basically the Sahara could generate 307692 times more power per year than the entire planet uses per year. or in another context in a single day it could generate 843 times the total global power usage for a year.


Australia

The largest solar power station in Australia is the 400kWp array at Singleton, New South Wales. Other significant solar arrays include the 220 kWp array on the Anangu Pitjantjatjara Lands in South Australia, the 200kWp array at Queen Victoria Market in Melbourne and the 160kWp array at Kogerah Town Square in Sydney. Numerous smaller arrays have been established, mainly in remote areas where solar power is cost-competitive with diesel power.[21]

 

[rmuir]

the grants available certainly make the idea more attractive, so they have achieved their aim.

However i think the grants include a clause whereby if you were to sell on your property within a certain, specified period ( could be five years im not sure ) then you must repay the value of the grant in full.

Our current landlord has taken 3 months to investigate the fitting of an electric shower and some panel heaters so im not even gonna go near the prospect of micro generation. That can wait until we get our own place

 

[Dolph]

what kind of system are they having fitted?

Really interested in this, can't afford it at the moment plus im in private rented accomodation. But for the near(ish) future i have to say that having some sort of self efficiency from the Grid would appear to be a very smart move.

Ground source heat pump systems have been most impressive, from what little research i have done.

Tbh I'm not sure, it was something they mentioned last time I saw them. I'll try and find out if you're interested

They are lucky in that they have a long south facing roof

It's certainly an interesting idea, depending on how they get on with it it's something I'd consider for my home as well

 

[rmuir]

certainly would be interesting to know type/success of project.

Whats everyones feelings on Nuclear power genertion? OP is for it, and so am i.
I also believe that renewables have a viable part to play. By which i mean i don't think we can get ourselves in the situation where we are too dependent on any one source for our energy requirements. A bit of education at the user end wouldn't go amiss as well.

 

[AS_Platinum]

I'm up for it, I see it as the real only way forward.

 

[Lagz]

Just build another few nuclear power plants tbh. Wind farms are such a waste of time given the damage they cause to the environment offset against the tiny amount of energy they actually produce.

 

[Wryel]

I always wondered if anyone had considered putting panels on some of the polar ice caps, try and stop them melting and test out some new technology.

I work in I.T. but would love to work in some renewable energy company/position, I think its the most important thing on the world agenda.

 

[Mon]

I am pro nuclear even though i live relativly close to a nuclear plant, i believe that yes wind, solar and tidal play a big part in future power generation but i beleive you need a mix so that you arn't too reliant on one soure of power.

I will be quite interested o so how the proposed severn barage comes on they estimate that it wil produce 7% of the uks energy double what is already produced by renewable energy in the uk.
But until the technology develops and is more efficient then we need another generation of nuclear.