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Zen 4 to have pcie 5

Discussion in 'CPUs' started by Harlequin, 12 Oct 2021.

  1. Harlequin

    Mobster

    Joined: 17 Jun 2004

    Posts: 4,833

    Location: Eastbourne , East Sussex.



    Skip to 2.19 ; new info on zen4!
     
  2. jigger

    Capodecina

    Joined: 28 May 2007

    Posts: 15,625

    Interesting. A performance jump similar to what we got from Ryzen 3000 to 5000.
     
  3. Grim5

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 6 Feb 2019

    Posts: 8,856

    Who's that and why should I trust him?
     
  4. james.miller

    Capodecina

    Joined: 17 Aug 2003

    Posts: 19,535

    Location: Woburn Sand Dunes

    his info comes from the ryzen:5 years later video from AMD.


    7m05s onwards:

    New platform in 2022:
    - ddr 5
    - pcie gen 5
    - compatible with existing AM4 coolers.
     
  5. THX1138

    Gangster

    Joined: 30 Aug 2021

    Posts: 263

    Location: coventry

    They had to do the Pci-e 5 after Intel went down that route. otherwise AMD fanboys would not have been happy.
     
  6. alec

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 11 Dec 2016

    Posts: 1,407

    Location: Oxford

    All Pcie5 means is more expensive motherboards.
    Probably will be limited just as Intel, to 4x storage and/or only 16x GPU slot.
     
  7. THX1138

    Gangster

    Joined: 30 Aug 2021

    Posts: 263

    Location: coventry


    It is still a bit over kill bandwidth wise but that said Pcie 6 is not far off.
     
  8. Dave2150

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 31 Oct 2002

    Posts: 8,225

    Late 2022 for AM5 - assuming no further delays. I expected AMD to be faster, considering they were first with PCI-Ev4 etc.

    Looks like AMD have taken their foot off the pedal, as Intel launch Alderlake and next gen DDR5/PCIEV5 platform in the next few weeks, followed by Raptor lake in 2022.

    Perhaps AM5 will end up competing with Meteor Lake?
     
  9. jigger

    Capodecina

    Joined: 28 May 2007

    Posts: 15,625

    About 6 weeks for Intel to launch apparently. If Intel launch meat-E-or lake within 12 months of Alderlake then yeah. Although I’m not sure how much completion* Intel will provide. It’s going get very rough for Intel over the next few years.

    But you already know this. So Hi Dave. Now back in your box.
     
  10. LePhuronn

    Soldato

    Joined: 26 Sep 2010

    Posts: 6,473

    Location: Stoke-on-Trent

    And in which time AMD release Zen 3D to compete with Alder Lake and Zen 4 to compete/crush Raptor Lake. So no, AMD haven't taken their foot off the pedal at all.

    This PCIe Gen 5 thing is Intel knee-jerking to AMD getting Gen 4 out and Comet Lake staying with Gen 3. The only thing that PCIe Gen 5 will bring to the mainstream desktop is storage bandwidth, but Alder Lake doesn't support the full Gen 5 speeds for storage, so it's largely just a big numbers marketing exercise. I'm not even convinced Intel's block diagram is accurate in using Gen 5 to offer a lot of Gen 4 links to and from the chipset, that's just silly when just having more Gen 4 lanes will do the same job.
     
  11. LePhuronn

    Soldato

    Joined: 26 Sep 2010

    Posts: 6,473

    Location: Stoke-on-Trent

    Fat chance. Raptor Lake is next as that's a refinement of Alder Lake (tweaks to the big cores, doubling the small cores), and that's pegged for about a year afterwards. Meteor Lake is 2023 built on Intel's 7nm "Intel 4", assuming they get it viable for then.
     
  12. KompuKare

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 31 Dec 2010

    Posts: 1,160

    It's tempting to say "you can never have too much bandwidth".

    However, if that increased bandwidth requires more motherboard traces, re-timers and similar then it will mostly just lead to increased motherboard prices. Plus possibly increased power requirements.

    Luddite me will be happy too stick to PCIe 4.0 then.
     
  13. Dave2150

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 31 Oct 2002

    Posts: 8,225

    Can always tell when someone emotionally or financially involved reads an opinion they don't like, they resort to insults or other derogatory comments. Sigh.

    How exactly are AMD going to compete, when Alderlake will further intel's single thread IPC advantage and also eclipse Zen 3 in multi-thread/productivity workloads?

    AMD are set to refresh (sigh) Zen3 with extra cache sometime in 2022. Intel are launching Raptorlake, which will bring further IPC improvements, along with 24 cores total (8b16s), in 2022 as well..

    Meteor lake likely to launch in a similar window to Zen4 - to my eye it's AMD that are back on the backfoot.

    AMD have woken the sleeping giant that is Intel, lets hope for competition that they pick up the pace and don't get crushed.
     
  14. LePhuronn

    Soldato

    Joined: 26 Sep 2010

    Posts: 6,473

    Location: Stoke-on-Trent

    Oh dear, looks like you need to do some reading to brush up your timelines and numbers.

    AMD aren't refreshing Zen 3 "sometime in 2022", they're releasing Q1 2022. It's actually in production right now. Intel don't have a real-world IPC advantage since none of Rocket Lake's improvements ever materialised in the real world, and so far Alder Lake is looking to be similar. Even then, the leaked synthetics compare Alder Lake to Zen 3, not Zen 3D, and therefore discounting the performance boost the stacked cache design will bring. If the synthetics prove to be correct then Alder Lake will edge out Zen 3D by a small margin. That is not "eclipsing". So it's Alder Lake vs Zen 3D for 2022.

    Raptor Lake isn't due until end of 2022, Zen 4 is expected a little bit before that. The shrink to 5nm for Zen 4 also brings rumours of 10 core chiplets, so you're looking at 20c/40t vs 24c/32t. There's even that spectre of 4 way SMT floating about for Zen. So it's Raptor Lake vs Zen 4 in 2023.

    Only THEN does Meteor Lake land in 2023, assuming Intel can get their Intel 4 process working. by which time Zen 5 is also due. So no, Meteor Lake is not launching in the same window as Zen 4. Meteor Lake is launching about a year after Zen 4.

    So how exactly is AMD on the back foot?


    You may cry hard about "insults or other derogatory comments" coming at you, but maybe if you bothered to post correct information in the first place, you wouldn't get called out for the utter Intel shill you've proven yourself to be countless times. And then promptly vanished when your wild fantasies and bilge water tosh proves to be totally incorrect.
     
  15. Troezar

    Mobster

    Joined: 6 Aug 2009

    Posts: 4,939

    I for one won't be touching PCIE 5 until it's 3 years old. Is there anything that needs it? It only seems 5 mins ago when everyone was saying PCIE4 was overkill. I'm hoping there is some real neck and neck competition and pricing becomes a buying factor, that will really keep the PC market moving. These high prices are killing it, even the TechTubers seem to be struggling for content at the moment!
     
  16. LePhuronn

    Soldato

    Joined: 26 Sep 2010

    Posts: 6,473

    Location: Stoke-on-Trent

    Technically your storage can never be too fast, so there's nothing wrong with having PCIe 5 SSDs. In reality, nothing on the mainstream desktop would benefit from Gen 5 SSD speeds for the foreseeable (HEDT and server is a different matter). Also I don't think Intel are even supporting Gen 5 storage on Alder Lake.

    Also technically, Gen 5 is twice the speed of Gen 4 so you could bifurcate Gen 5 lines into lots of Gen 4 lanes to feed the motherboard with lots of bandwidth, which is what it looks like Intel are doing with the Alder Lake chipset. but again in reality, what's the point in the extra expense of that when you could just do more Gen 4 lanes to start with (says the simpleton)?
     
  17. EsaT

    Capodecina

    Joined: 6 Jun 2008

    Posts: 10,781

    Location: Finland

    DDR5's latencies suck badly for any latency intensive uses. (like gaming)

    Alder Lake+DDR5 has 90+ ns memory latency.
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/gear-4-mode-tested-on-alder-lake

    For comparison current DDR4 Intels run routinely at 50ns memory latency.
    And Ryzens with their latency increasing chiplet design (vs monolithic Alder Lake) achieve 60ns with good memories.
    Also all that Alder Lake will have to try to mask memory latency is measly 32MB of L3.
    While AMD has currently double of that and 3D stacked L3 cache updated model will have 192MB.

    Going to take quite few years of maturing of DDR5 to return latencies to same level as in DDR4.
    No wonder MS is breaking scheduler for AMD in Wintoys11.


    PCIe v5 again won't bring anything for desktop users for many years, except more costs.
    GPUs simply won't be bottlenecked by PCIe v4 in years.

    One thing where higher per lane bandwidth would be usefull is for increasing amount of NVMe drives while keeping existing number of PCIe lanes.
    x1 PCIe v5 slot would give ~4GB/s matching PCIe v3 drive speed fully.



    Real world single thread performance is often limited by memory latency (weak spot in original Zen) and CPU core improvements don't help to that.

    Also big.little is always going to be problem for scheduling when performance matters.
    And problem would be even bigger without completely same instruction set support:
    Intel went as far as disabling their feature above AMD, AVX-512, from Alder Lake's full cores because of little cores lacking it.
     
  18. Troezar

    Mobster

    Joined: 6 Aug 2009

    Posts: 4,939

    Makes sense. It will be interesting to see the real world testing and see if there is much difference. I can see it for large set data crunching but I imagine for the most strenuous thing most people do, gaming, it won't be a game changer. Once the masses are on fast NVME drives I'm expecting to see a bigger difference, but that could be a long way off.

    Intel still need AMD to keep pushing them as I'm sure they will hold back performance wherever they can given a chance.
     
  19. LePhuronn

    Soldato

    Joined: 26 Sep 2010

    Posts: 6,473

    Location: Stoke-on-Trent

    I've edited 4K RAW footage from a Gen 4 SSD and it's a thing of beauty. Alas it wasn't my machine and alas my high-end video production days are behind me. Your average YouTuber would benefit from such a setup, but anything above that is HEDT territory. My main system is still SATA SSDs and there's just no perceptible difference in everyday operation compared to NVMe.
     
  20. tommoT.Striker

    Gangster

    Joined: 1 Jun 2019

    Posts: 380

    Seems like PCIE5 on the consumer platforms is for marketing purposes, Intel want to differentiate it from the Ryzen platform and AMD don't want it to be a marketing ploy of Intel's for too long. Now we know it won't be an Intel exclusive for too long at all.

    2022 shall be an exciting year for AMD!