Abu Dhabi Prix 2015, Yas Marina - Race 19/19

Skeeter · 2 Dec 2015 at 22:45

It was in reply to your comment about how Ferrari are meant to be the ones getting let off lightly. Getting away with things is pretty irrelevant when your in charge anyway.

JRS · 2 Dec 2015 at 22:55

Okay, so Ferrari having power within the sport means that they can get away with stuff. Fair enough point, though I'm pretty sure that they've had more than a few tussles with the officials over the years that haven't gone their way! Doesn't change the fact that McLaren got off extremely lightly with what was a pretty bloody serious offence. Twice.

Skeeter · 3 Dec 2015 at 07:13

Yeah, I mean its not like the FIA are inconsistent or anything....

I do think its quite funny that McLaren got the largest fine in sport for being in possession of another teams aero details, yet this year Ferrari have built their whole 2016 campaign by (quite openly) doing the same thing :rolleyes:

.

JRS · 3 Dec 2015 at 11:13

Skeeter said:
Yeah, I mean its not like the FIA are inconsistent or anything....

Quite consistent in letting Renault off with cheating, mind.

Skeeter said:
I do think its quite funny that McLaren got the largest fine in sport for being in possession of another teams aero details, yet this year Ferrari have built their whole 2016 campaign by (quite openly) doing the same thing .

Go on then. Explain to me precisely how Ferrari acted outside of the regulations as they were written at the time. Hell, even Mercedes don't think that they broke the rules:

Motorsport.com said:
"I don't think that they operated outside of the regulations," said Wolff. "I think Ferrari/Haas interpreted the rules in the right way, and it wasn't for us to seek clarification of the past.

"We just wanted to be rock solid for the future, for us mainly. And, in the way we did it, for everybody to have that transparent information."

When asked by Motorsport.com if he believed Ferrari had gained an advantage through what it did, Wolff said: "I don't know.

"This is a sport about gaining advantage and if they gained an advantage by interpreting the rules like they did then 'chapeau'. They deserve it."

source

Little bit different to the McLaren situation. Besides, if you want to rail at something then rail at Renault being found guilty of being in posession of McLaren technical data....but still escaping punishment.

SS-89 · 3 Dec 2015 at 12:24

Skeeter said:
Yeah, I mean its not like the FIA are inconsistent or anything....

I do think its quite funny that McLaren got the largest fine in sport for being in possession of another teams aero details, yet this year Ferrari have built their whole 2016 campaign by (quite openly) doing the same thing .

A technical coordination where Haas are openly sharing details isn't quite the same as McLaren being in possession and utilising (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64374) stolen documentation from another team now is it?

Skeeter · 3 Dec 2015 at 12:29

Its not that different when you boil it down though. One team has another teams data. Simple as that. McLaren weren't fined for theft, they were fined for being in possession.

The difference is just that Haas aren't yet considered a team. The cynic in me says why don't someone like McLaren just log an entry for 2017 for a new team called "McLaren 2", run 5 wind tunnels 24/7 for all of next year, and then mysteriously be 'unable' to make it to the grid in 2017 and leave all their aero data on McLaren's desk on their way out...

smr · 3 Dec 2015 at 13:19

Eason reporting in the Times that Hamilton's Merc engineers are getting ******* off with him, as well as senior figures in the Mercedes outfit, and that that Toto "warning" the other day, well Fleet St. as it were are saying that was aimed specifically at Hamilton, one more season and he'll be off I reckon.

Heard that before with Marc Priestley when he was at McLaren - said the same thing about a lot of the engineers and guys at McLaren towards Hamilton's attitude.

JRS · 3 Dec 2015 at 13:31

Skeeter said:
Its not that different when you boil it down though. One team has another teams data. Simple as that. McLaren weren't fined for theft, they were fined for being in possession.

The difference is just that Haas aren't yet considered a team.

Really? That the only difference in the situations that you could spot?

Nothing about how McLaren were getting information from a disgruntled employee at Ferrari, but Ferrari and Haas were in full co-operation within the letter of the rulebook and with the knowledge of the FIA? Nothing about how McLaren were hit as hard as they were for bringing the sport into disrepute, but there's no suggestion from any quarter (including their chief rival in the sport) that Ferrari were doing the same?

SS-89 · 3 Dec 2015 at 13:33

Skeeter said:
Its not that different when you boil it down though. One team has another teams data. Simple as that. McLaren weren't fined for theft, they were fined for being in possession.

The difference is just that Haas aren't yet considered a team. The cynic in me says why don't someone like McLaren just log an entry for 2017 for a new team called "McLaren 2", run 5 wind tunnels 24/7 for all of next year, and then mysteriously be 'unable' to make it to the grid in 2017 and leave all their aero data on McLaren's desk on their way out...

I doubt the FIA would have fined or even brought a case in the first place if Ferrari had openly shared details with McLaren. I imagine the primary driver behind the fine was the fact that McLaren had possession and utilised information gained by criminal means (when Stepney stole it), Ferrari obviously never gave permission so that's where the issue arose.

The facts of the two situations are very different aside from the possession of another teams information point so hardly comparable. I'm not suggesting any team is particularly squeaky clean but the Ferrari/Haas partnership has been completely above board and the FIA and other teams are fine with it...something that can't be said about the Mclaren/Ferrari affair.

Skeeter · 3 Dec 2015 at 13:38

JRS said:
Really? That the only difference in the situations that you could spot?

In terms of why McLaren broke the rules and Ferrari didn't yes. Seeking clarification on exactly this (what constitutes a "competitor") is what Mercedes did too, so they clearly see this as being the key factor in what Ferrari are now doing.

Would McLaren have even have been deemed to break the rules had they done the exact same thing but with Lola data, for example? Probably not.

JRS · 3 Dec 2015 at 13:48

Skeeter said:
Would McLaren have even have been deemed to break the rules had they done the exact same thing but with Lola data, for example? Probably not.

Well, no. Because in 2007 Lola were nowhere near F1 and with pretty good reason given what happened 10 years previously! That's partly the point - McLaren obtained data on a rival (their closest, no less), misled the FIA about the extent that this knowledge was disseminated through the team, got caught out.

SS-89 · 3 Dec 2015 at 13:51

What point are you trying to make here? Whilst the rules may be particularly vague it's abundantly clear that stealing and utilising another teams data is not tolerated in any sport/industry. Corporate theft is a crime and as such they were penalised under whatever arbitrary rule-set the FIA had to hand which in this case was the fact they were in possession of another teams data.

The two situations aren't remotely comparable.

If McLaren had entered into a similar partnership with Ferrari and been penalised then obviously that would be grossly unfair but that simply wasn't the case. Ferrari have clearly not tried to mislead the FIA and have been fairly open about the partnership.

Edit: Like JRS says, McLaren initially lied about how much information had filtered throughout the team and the FIA couldn't penalise them as a result, only when the driver emails came to light did the FIA impose the penalties.

Skeeter · 3 Dec 2015 at 14:12

Well this is clearly going around and around so I will just leave it here and state the my point is simply this:

Being in possession of another teams data = Not Ok
Being in possession of another teams data when they are not currently competing = Ok

The latter is actually going to be banned next year anyway, as following Mercedes clarification request (which is basically the above), the FIA have closed the rules to stop people doing what Ferrari/Haas did.

SS-89 · 3 Dec 2015 at 14:48

Skeeter said:
Well this is clearly going around and around so I will just leave it here and state the my point is simply this:

Being in possession of another teams data = Not Ok
Being in possession of another teams data when they are not currently competing = Ok

The latter is actually going to be banned next year anyway, as following Mercedes clarification request (which is basically the above), the FIA have closed the rules to stop people doing what Ferrari/Haas did.

Well no more like:

Being in possession of another teams data which has been stolen= Never ok and also a criminal offence.

Being in possession of another teams data via a technical partnership that didn't contravene any rules = ok

I'm not sure why you're trying to paint McLaren as some hard done by party based on the Ferrari/Haas partnership. This is very much akin to the way Red bull set up Torro Rosso and is within the rules.

Yes the rules are ambiguous but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the penalty was largely driven by the fact that they repeatedly lied and utilised stolen data. Nobody would have cared if the whole thing was above board much like the Ferrar/Haas situation (well aside from teams being disgruntled that they didn't think of it).

Kimi · 3 Dec 2015 at 15:35

Renault have completed the Lotus takeover
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122120

Skeeter · 3 Dec 2015 at 15:42

Yay, a team survives.

Dam, it has Maldonado in it.

JRS · 3 Dec 2015 at 15:51

Skeeter said:
Yay, a team survives.

Skeeter said:
Dam, it has Maldonado in it.

SS-89 · 3 Dec 2015 at 16:53

Great news!

Wonder what Red Bull will do after 2016 though (is that when their engine contract ends?)?

smr · 3 Dec 2015 at 17:32

A bit more like it!

timmeh · 3 Dec 2015 at 17:46

Not sure why Button is so high on that list...

Sainz should definitely be a lot higher and Hamilton should not be at the top.

Maldonado's position is accurate. Not sure I agree with his score though.