Halos and Heroes

deuse · 15 Aug 2016 at 16:31

Quartz said:
How so? Canopies seem to be effective on fighter jets.

Until they go wrong.
" pilot was trapped in an F-22 cockpit for five hours on April 10th after the canopy failed to open. Several attempts to open the canopy failed,
and ultimately the canopy was cut by fire department personnel. "

No one will ever stop a freak accident.

this_is_gav · 16 Aug 2016 at 14:37

deuse said:
No one will ever stop a freak accident.

There will always be freak accidents. When you lower the chances of a driver/spectator getting hurt then accidents which might once have been common place, or certainly more likely, become freakish instead.

No, you can't make anything 100% safe, but now when an accident which injures someone occurs it is almost always automatically labelled a "freak accident" rather than just an accident. That's what progress does.

There isn't a valid reason to disregard the halo or canopy.

this_is_gav · 22 Aug 2016 at 19:35

Today in Pocono Helio Castroneves literally took Rossi's indycar in the face.

Are these all freak accidents? The only freak here is that Helio Castroneves wasn't seriously injured or worse.

Brad Keselowski said:
I don't want to lose anymore friends and colleagues to accidents we know how to fix.

Halos please.

Crippled Potato · 23 Aug 2016 at 13:03

Definitely the Pit crew's fault, the guy doing the signaling never even bothered to look at the oncoming traffic. Helio Castroneves looks like an unsafe release too. Those teams should get a massive penalty in my opinion. I also never understand why the pit lane is so wide in indy.

I'm not going to argue for or against head protection for now, but I personally believe in mitigating the incidents occurring in the first place.

MissChief · 23 Aug 2016 at 14:46

The cockpit surround on a F1 car is far higher than it is on an Indycar though. And with the nose of the car possible going under the Halo support at the side in an accident like above it might actually force the nose towards the drivers he'd and helmet rather than a chance of it moving away.

FrankJH · 23 Aug 2016 at 15:53

Never saw anything wrong with the canopy that cant be resolved with a bit of research, apart from the fact it changes the principle of F1 to "closed cockpit".

Im not suggesting this is wrong, we have to move with the times and the faster the cars are capable of going the better protection required. It makes complete sense.

Are there off track reasons why they dont want to go to a closed cockpit (significant drop in sponsorship because there is less danger - would the drivers accept less pay if the danger was significantly reduced)

There has to be something stopping the FIA allowing a closed cockpit (unless its their usual ineptitude

)

this_is_gav · 23 Aug 2016 at 16:27

MissChief said:
The cockpit surround on a F1 car is far higher than it is on an Indycar though. And with the nose of the car possible going under the Halo support at the side in an accident like above it might actually force the nose towards the drivers he'd and helmet rather than a chance of it moving away.

This isn't just about F1, which is why I've included Indycar accidents when mentioning the number of accidents where a driver has been injured or killed in recent years. Indycar will come up with their solution, similar or not to whatever the FIA decide for their series.

I'm not saying that this or that would have been prevented or made worse, wearing this or that, merely it's just further illustrating my point that more needs to be done regarding head protection across motorsport. It's about minimising the likelihood of an injury, as you'll never prevent all injuries.

Ninco! · 16 Sep 2016 at 23:55

I don't doubt current surround proposal would lesson/prevent certain accidents, but I think small projectiles such as Massa, Senna - questionable.

I would guess the full canopy will eventually become mandatory. Driver visibility from dirt, rain and evacuation are no doubt the biggest challenges. I hope they find a solution which look like Tamiya RC cars from the eighties

this_is_gav · 17 Sep 2016 at 16:17

Ninco! said:
I don't doubt current surround proposal would lesson/prevent certain accidents, but I think small projectiles such as Massa, Senna - questionable.

Senna was killed by a wheel with the suspension still attached to it, not just a piece of suspension flying through the air.

deuse · 5 Oct 2016 at 11:27

"Could the 'Halo' device, which is set to be introduced in 2018, actually hamper a driver's escape and deprive him of crucial life saving seconds? Alonso believes so..."

http://en.f1i.com/news/74470-alonso-urges-halo-removable.html

I said the same about the Halo last week here. In my opinion it's a waste of time and money, which some teams don't have.

this_is_gav · 5 Oct 2016 at 12:09

deuse said:
"Could the 'Halo' device, which is set to be introduced in 2018, actually hamper a driver's escape and deprive him of crucial life saving seconds? Alonso believes so..."

http://en.f1i.com/news/74470-alonso-urges-halo-removable.html

I said the same about the Halo last week here. In my opinion it's a waste of time and money, which some teams don't have.

All he said is that it was "uncomfortable getting out of the car"? :confused:

deuse · 5 Oct 2016 at 13:58

this_is_gav said:
All he said is that it was "uncomfortable getting out of the car"?

I see you missed out "where you have to put the feet and where you have to jump"

""Maybe there is a way of making the halo somehow removable in a way we can jump out of the car a little bit quicker."

In other words the halo slows him down. It's not that hard to understand.

this_is_gav · 5 Oct 2016 at 15:44

Fair enough.

So make it removable. He said himself: "For this reason they have delayed its introduction just to make sure we cover all of the possibilities."

deuse · 5 Oct 2016 at 17:52

this_is_gav said:
Fair enough.

So make it removable. He said himself: "For this reason they have delayed its introduction just to make sure we cover all of the possibilities."

That won't happen because it will add time to get out of the car. I think the halo is going to hurt someone before they ditch it.

this_is_gav · 6 Oct 2016 at 08:37

deuse said:
That won't happen because it will add time to get out of the car. I think the halo is going to hurt someone before they ditch it.

F1 is the only form of motorsport where they have to get out of the car in 5 seconds. It used to be 7 seconds even before head restraints. Any tin-top, Indycar or prototype is longer (for obvious reasons in 2 cases), and nobody has been killed by fire in one of those since in any of those categories since what, the 80's perhaps?

Given the miniscule risk of a serious fire now (and no, Magnussen's wasn't a serious fire) isn't there more benefit in potentially saving a driver's life by having a chance of deflecting an object away from him?

It's not like they would have to add 30 seconds to the time it would take to get out of the car (not that a driver would be seriously injured in 30 seconds either).

deuse · 6 Oct 2016 at 13:13

this_is_gav said:
F1 is the only form of motorsport where they have to get out of the car in 5 seconds. It used to be 7 seconds even before head restraints. Any tin-top, Indycar or prototype is longer (for obvious reasons in 2 cases), and nobody has been killed by fire in one of those since in any of those categories since what, the 80's perhaps?

Given the miniscule risk of a serious fire now (and no, Magnussen's wasn't a serious fire) isn't there more benefit in potentially saving a driver's life by having a chance of deflecting an object away from him?

It's not like they would have to add 30 seconds to the time it would take to get out of the car (not that a driver would be seriously injured in 30 seconds either).

Please tell me what object can it stop at a F1 race?

Lopéz · 6 Oct 2016 at 16:14

He didn't say stop, he said deflect. There is a massive difference between the two.

deuse · 7 Oct 2016 at 02:48

Lopéz said:
He didn't say stop, he said deflect. There is a massive difference between the two.

Fair enough. So tell me what it can deflect in a F1 race?

I'm just watching Suzuka P1 and on the force India and most of the drivers helmet is exposed using the halo!

this_is_gav · 7 Oct 2016 at 09:19

deuse said:
Fair enough. So tell me what it can deflect in a F1 race?

I'm just watching Suzuka P1 and on the force India and most of the drivers helmet is exposed using the halo!

We've already established that it would deflect a wheel. Probably a nose cone too. It might even have stopped the spring that hit Massa.

Look, Deuse, we all know you hate the idea of any type of these devices, as do lots of people (me included), but you have to accept that at some point it will come in. Perhaps the halo will be delayed again until 2019, perhaps it will be scrapped in favour of the canopy or the self-deploying device designed by the ex-Ferrari engineer or perhaps we the whole project will be canned indefinitely, but the moment that another driver's head is threatened by a piece of debris then we will have a device installed. It is going to happen at some point.

deuse · 7 Oct 2016 at 13:06

this_is_gav said:
We've already established that it would deflect a wheel. Probably a nose cone too. It might even have stopped the spring that hit Massa.

Look, Deuse, we all know you hate the idea of any type of these devices, as do lots of people (me included), but you have to accept that at some point it will come in. Perhaps the halo will be delayed again until 2019, perhaps it will be scrapped in favour of the canopy or the self-deploying device designed by the ex-Ferrari engineer or perhaps we the whole project will be canned indefinitely, but the moment that another driver's head is threatened by a piece of debris then we will have a device installed. It is going to happen at some point.

The halo would not of stopped the spring that hit Massa. I've never seen a nose cone off and hit any car in F1.

This may stop a wheel hitting the car head on, but as we know when the wheel comes off it goes off to a angle.

It was just a knee jerk reaction from the bianchi death.
In P2 today a Hass car came off at the same corner as bianchi.
But they still sent out the same JCB, so the same thing could have happened again.

FIA+Safty=JOKE