The Great Big FFP Debate

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So Everton should be punished for what they spent within the rules too? Interesting idea.

The rules allow for clubs to spend £105m more than you bring in and they allow for a number of expenses to be deducted from those calculations. Everton only breached the rules by £16.6m across 3 seasons. You can only punish them for that, not anything else they spent because that is not against the rules and it's what every other club is also doing.
that's two poor trolls in one afternoon, do better.

the 105 million isn't free money, it's a very generous leeway.

If you have a £4k limit on a credit card and go over the limit by £500 you owe £4.5k not £500 even if "everybody else is doing it" which they aren't btw.
 
Don
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that's two poor trolls in one afternoon, do better.

the 105 million isn't free money, it's a very generous leeway.

If you have a £4k limit on a credit card and go over the limit by £500 you owe £4.5k not £500 even if "everybody else is doing it" which they aren't btw.
What on earth are you talking about? It appears that you don't seem to understand what the rules are.

There is nothing preventing clubs from simply losing money. The rules are very specific and exclude a whole host of expenses. After deducting all those allowable expenses, there is a limit to what clubs can lose and any breach is the amount over that limit. In Everton's case £16.6m over 3 years.

And I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence :confused: All clubs remove allowable expenses from their PSR calculations, why shouldn't Everton.

And finally I'd be interested to hear how many points Spurs, for example, should be docked. Their headline losses over the last 3 years are around £240m. They're not remotely close to breaching PSR rules but obviously that doesn't matter as they've lost "100s of millions".
 
Associate
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What on earth are you talking about? It appears that you don't seem to understand what the rules are.

There is nothing preventing clubs from simply losing money. The rules are very specific and exclude a whole host of expenses. After deducting all those allowable expenses, there is a limit to what clubs can lose and any breach is the amount over that limit. In Everton's case £16.6m over 3 years.

And I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence :confused: All clubs remove allowable expenses from their PSR calculations, why shouldn't Everton.

And finally I'd be interested to hear how many points Spurs, for example, should be docked. Their headline losses over the last 3 years are around £240m. They're not remotely close to breaching PSR rules but obviously that doesn't matter as they've lost "100s of millions".


IT's NOT JUST 16.6m OVER 3 YEARS

it's 105 million PLUS all the allowable expenses PLUS another 16.6m, it's not difficult to understand unless you're trolling.

if you lose 95m, say, you haven't passed FFP, your club is not sustainable, you just haven't reached the generous, agreed upon threshold for punishment, it doesn't mean you haven't really spent 95m more than you have.
 
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Don
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IT's NOT JUST 16.6m OVER 3 YEARS

it's 105 million PLUS all the allowable expenses PLUS another 16.6m, it's not difficult to understand unless you're trolling.

if you lose 95m, say you haven't passed FFP you just haven't reached the generous, agreed upon threshold for punishment, it doesn't mean you haven't really spent 95m more than you have.
Ok, as I said you don't understand the rules and pointing that out and attempting to explain the rules to you isn't trolling.

You're getting hung up on how much Everton have lost as I suspected right from the outset and are completely ignorant to the fact that it makes no difference to their charge. They could have lost £1bn but if £895m of that is allowable expenses then they've done nothing wrong. The only number that matters is £16.6m as that is how big their breach is. It's not my opinion, it's literally documented in the PL handbook and the written reasons for Everton's penalty. You may not like the rules but that's irrelevant.

Maybe you will understand it better this way. If there is a 40mph speed limit and you get stopped driving 50mph, you get punished for going 10mph over the limit. You're not punished for the first 40mph because you're allowed to drive 40mph. Just like Everton aren't punished for the first £105m lost because they're allowed to lose that much after allowable expenses. I doubt it but I hope that helps.
 
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Ok, as I said you don't understand the rules and pointing that out and attempting to explain the rules to you isn't trolling.

You're getting hung up on how much Everton have lost as I suspected right from the outset and are completely ignorant to the fact that it makes no difference to their charge. They could have lost £1bn but if £895m of that is allowable expenses then they've done nothing wrong. The only number that matters is £16.6m as that is how big their breach is. It's not my opinion, it's literally documented in the PL handbook and the written reasons for Everton's penalty. You may not like the rules but that's irrelevant.

Maybe you will understand it better this way. If there is a 40mph speed limit and you get stopped driving 50mph, you get punished for going 10mph over the limit. You're not punished for the first 40mph because you're allowed to drive 40mph. Just like Everton aren't punished for the first £105m lost because they're allowed to lose that much after allowable expenses. I doubt it but I hope that helps.


the 16.6m over the 105m matters as far as the current rules go whether they are punished or not, yes, but it still doesn't change the fact they spent at least 120m more than they had,

It's not difficult to understand, and it's not difficult to understand why that's a bad thing and not sustainable. If every club without a sugar daddy spent 120 million more than they had every 3 years, there wouldn't be very many football clubs left, despite the fact you seem to think "everyone is doing it"
 
Don
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the 16.6m over the 105m matters as far as the current rules go whether they are punished or not, yes, but it still doesn't change the fact they spent at least 120m more than they had,

It's not difficult to understand, and it's not difficult to understand why that's a bad thing and not sustainable. If every club without a sugar daddy spent 120 million more than they had every 3 years, there wouldn't be very many football clubs left, despite the fact you seem to think "everyone is doing it"
We're not debating whether clubs losing money is a bad thing - read back through my previous posts and you'll see my views on that. We're debating the size of Everton's punishment and the only thing that matters is how big their breach was, not how much their total losses are.

And I didn't state that every club is losing £120m (although many are losing much more*), I stated that Everton shouldn't be punished for costs that are not within the rules as every other club is allowed and do deduct those costs.

*Spurs lost around £240m over 3 years but are comfortably within the PSR rules, Arsenal have lost around £230m over the last 3 years but are fairly comfortable within the PSR rules, Man Utd have lost around £230m over the last 3 years and again are fairly comfortably within PSR rules. The vast majority of clubs are hugely loss making. In fact it's extremely rare for a club to make a profit in the PL and the ones that do are almost always as a result of a huge player sale and the way incoming and outgoing transfers are accounted for.
 
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.

And I didn't state that every club is losing £120m (although many are losing much more*), I stated that Everton shouldn't be punished for costs that are not within the rules as every other club is allowed and do deduct those costs.
They aren't, no club is ever punished for costs that fall outside FFP/PSR they tend to be things that give no direct sporting advantage, and there is at least some sort of logic to encouraging clubs to spend money on stadiums and training grounds.

Everything else is counted, the 105 million isn't some sort of target to hit or take advantage of, it's a leeway, so clubs aren't forced to sell players on the cheap to break even that financial year for example.

Everton haven't got 95% wages to turn over a mountain of deadwood and a mystery amount of high interest debt because of just "100k a week"
 
Don
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They aren't, no club is ever punished for costs that fall outside FFP/PSR they tend to be things that give no direct sporting advantage, and there is at least some sort of logic to encouraging clubs to spend money on stadiums and training grounds.

Everything else is counted, the 105 million isn't some sort of target to hit or take advantage of, it's a leeway, so clubs aren't forced to sell players on the cheap to break even that financial year for example.

Everton haven't got 95% wages to turn over a mountain of deadwood and a mystery amount of high interest debt because of just "100k a week"
Yes, I know no club is punished for costs that fall outside PSR - that was my point when you were pointing to these expenses in relation to Everton. And whether the £105m is a target or leeway, it ultimately doesn't matter. You're allowed to lose that £105m. The only number relevant is the amount over £105m.

As I said, if you want to see my views on financial regulations and sustainability then read through this entire thread and you will see that nobody more than me talks up the importance of sustainability. I've repeatedly said it's absolutely mad that some people want more relaxed rules when we're seeing Everton on the brink with the rules as they are. However you cannot punish Everton based on what you or I think the rules should be, you can only punish them based on what the rules are.

Anyway I'm not sure what more I can add to this debate now so I'll leave it there.
 
Soldato
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WTF is going on in this thread, round and round in circles.



Anyway, reading a couple of articles on the athletic they’re saying that Newcastle and Villa maybe forced to sell some of their better (best) players to stay within PSR. Now, for me. This is where it’s going to get stupid and annoying. It’ll only further grow the gap between clubs and potentially set them both back a couple of years. Villa have a really good chance to get into the CL this year - if the league gets the fifth spot as well, it’s even more certain!
 
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WTF is going on in this thread, round and round in circles.



Anyway, reading a couple of articles on the athletic they’re saying that Newcastle and Villa maybe forced to sell some of their better (best) players to stay within PSR. Now, for me. This is where it’s going to get stupid and annoying. It’ll only further grow the gap between clubs and potentially set them both back a couple of years. Villa have a really good chance to get into the CL this year - if the league gets the fifth spot as well, it’s even more certain!
Yep and that there is the gripe that many Newcastle fans in particular have. The arbitrary line in the sand that was drawn when they decided to bring in these rules. I don’t really have a problem with it as something definitely had to be done but there isn’t a one size fits all solution and the league needs to protect the football clubs from careless ownership. The premier league and its fans can barely agree on what a handball or a penalty is these days so we are some way off having a PSR rule that suits everyone!
 
Soldato
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Yep and that there is the gripe that many Newcastle fans in particular have. The arbitrary line in the sand that was drawn when they decided to bring in these rules. I don’t really have a problem with it as something definitely had to be done but there isn’t a one size fits all solution and the league needs to protect the football clubs from careless ownership. The premier league and its fans can barely agree on what a handball or a penalty is these days so we are some way off having a PSR rule that suits everyone!
With the punishments for Everton and Forest, I hope we now stand firm and don’t sell our top players(not that I believe we have to) and take the small points deduction we will get.
 
Don
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I'm not sure it will go any way to leveling the playing field. As the article states, if this rule was in effect last season then only Chelsea would have been marginally over the upper limit. It would have little to no effect on how much the top sides can spend or at least what they do spend.

edit: and just to be clear, in case anybody thinks this rule is being proposed in isolation, this rule (if voted through) will be in addition to the 70/85% rule. So a club can only spend 70/85% (depending if they're in Europe or not) of their revenue on wages and amortisation but it would be capped at a maximum of 5x the bottom sides tv money. So Newcastle, Villa etc will still be limited to spending just 70% of their revenue but a side with £750m revenue (not that there is one) would be limited to just £515m(ish) and not 70% of their revenue (£525m).
 
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Soldato
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I'm not sure it will go any way to leveling the playing field. As the article states, if this rule was in effect last season then only Chelsea would have been marginally over the upper limit. It would have little to no effect on how much the top sides can spend or at least what they do spend.
It would mean the likes of Newcastle/Villa/Forest who are trying to catch up would be able to spend more, while those that don’t want to spend more would be under less pressure to sell to balance books “Everton”
 
Don
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It would mean the likes of Newcastle/Villa/Forest who are trying to catch up would be able to spend more, while those that don’t want to spend more would be under less pressure to sell to balance books “Everton”
Ah, see my edit. This rule is not being proposed in isolation. It's to go alongside the 70% squad cost rule. Newcastle, Villa and Forest won't be able to spend a penny more. It just limits what City (for example) could spend if their revenue ever got so high that 70% was more than 5x Sheffield Utd's tv money.
 
Soldato
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Ah, see my edit. This rule is not being proposed in isolation. It's to go alongside the 70% squad cost rule. Newcastle, Villa and Forest won't be able to spend a penny more. It just limits what City (for example) could spend if their revenue ever got so high that 70% was more than 5x Sheffield Utd's tv money.

Sigh, I got excited before reading this. Waste of time then.
 
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