House prices..

I read the same article in The Times that you did. My point still stands though ;)

The point only stands if prefixed by "in a very limited sample of a particular area that cannot be generalised to the rest of the city or the country"...

Without that, it's just misrepresentation, either accidental or deliberate.
 
Again that is only in affluent Kensington and Chelsea. Unless you have another article.

Kensington & Chelsea was a 4.9% drop according to the article.
There were several other boroughs which experienced larger drops:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/pdf/p/hpi/HousePriceIndex17thDecember2007.pdf
See page 9 of the document.

I personally think that the figures were skewed a little by HIPs and the time of year.
Still, it's a very large drop even taking those things into account.
 
The point only stands if prefixed by "in a very limited sample of a particular area that cannot be generalised to the rest of the city or the country"...

Without that, it's just misrepresentation, either accidental or deliberate.

What isn't misrepresentation is that prices are falling. That's all I care about to be honest. I wouldn't want to buy in London, so falls in Kensington or Chelsea are irrelevant to me.

Property prices may not be decreasing by 6% throughout the country, but I didn't claim they were. I accept I could have been more specific about those areas involved but I didn't feel the need - you're all quite capable of reading the article for yourselves.
 
Articles in the Sunday Telegraph were suggesting a 10% drop over 3 years. That's from both Citigroup and Morgan Stanley. What's slightly worrying is that citi say it could happen over one year or three years, the market is just so volatile they are not sure which.
 
well no it doesn't.

Well it does actually. My point was:

'Property in London and the Home Counties is arguably the most expensive and over-valued in the country. Therefore it makes sense that any correction will hit hardest here and then filter outwards gradually to the rest of the UK.'

You're getting your knickers in a twist over an average percentage of property value decrease and that's not what I was talking about.

That aside, you're missing the larger picture - prices are decreasing and regardless of the percentage that is a good thing IMHO.
 
Articles in the Sunday Telegraph were suggesting a 10% drop over 3 years. That's from both Citigroup and Morgan Stanley. What's slightly worrying is that citi say it could happen over one year or three years, the market is just so volatile they are not sure which.

Average prices will fall far more than 10% and far faster than one to three years. I predict they will have fallen more than 10% by the first six months of 2008.
 
Actually, I would argue that just because property is more expensive in London and the SE doesn't mean it is the most over-valued. There's greater demand for housing and much higher population density than most other areas of the country so prices are bound to be that bit higher.
 
Average prices will fall far more than 10% and far faster than one to three years. I predict they will have fallen more than 10% by the first six months of 2008.

Forgive my cynicism, but I'll take my advice from big city institutions rather than the internet. What's your reasoning for such a catastrophic fall? Do you not think the BofE and Govt will step in and try and sure the market up should prices start tumbling?
 
More worrying is how much our economy seems to rely on house prices.

Our economy is built on intangible values, consumer confidence being the main one. Consumer spending has fueled an outrageous period of boom based upon the back of oodles of cheap credit. That credit has now come to an end, so we will enter a recession.

Nothing the BoE can do will prevent that - they've lost control of the markets.
 
Articles in the Sunday Telegraph were suggesting a 10% drop over 3 years. That's from both Citigroup and Morgan Stanley. What's slightly worrying is that citi say it could happen over one year or three years, the market is just so volatile they are not sure which.

10% over 3 years is possible I suppose, though I would still expect it to be very regionally based
 
The problem that we are seeing is that people were under the impression that house prices could only rise. Although this is true in the long term the rate of increase in the last 8 years is completely unsustainable.

As the value of houses rose people borrowed more and more against their equity. Be this to pay off debts, consolidate, or even to treat themselves to a new car / holiday etc many people have borrowed substantially.

As the confidence goes (primarily driven by the media) people will start to reassess and drawdowns will dwindle. This reduction in available capital will obviously have an impact on the economy overall.

In regards to the housing market and prices the prices have to drop. Ultimately the housing market is a pyramid / ladder. Every pyramid/ladder requires new people to come on the bottom to allow everyone else the chance to move up.

With the vast majority of FTB houses being in excess of £100k the average earners simply cannot afford to get a sensible mortgage. A mortgage of £100k is approximately £750 a month (depending on term and rates) this is based on a 25 year repayment mortgage.

If the average combined income for 2 first time buyers is £30k this will leave them with approximately £2000 per month.

Now take off the following:

£750 for mortgage
£133 for council tax
£60 for gas / electric
£30 for insurance
£10 for BT

That works out to £983 for an absolute minimum outgoings. That does not cover food, petrol, sky, internet, car repayments, car insurance, mobile bills. It also does not include repayment of any existing debts.

Once you begin to add all those on to the bills and people have very little money left over at the end of the month.

Who in their right mind would want to financially cripple themselves in this way. On top of all of this you have to take into a account just how materialistic a lot of FTBs are.

Why burden yourselves when you can live at home for £300 a month all bills and food included?
 
Forgive my cynicism, but I'll take my advice from big city institutions rather than the internet. What's your reasoning for such a catastrophic fall? Do you not think the BofE and Govt will step in and try and sure the market up should prices start tumbling?

With tax payers money? They would be out of office instantly. Look at the flak they are still getting over the NR debacle.

If you'd read this thread from start to finish then you'd see the indicators that support my contention. I am not going to try and convince you, do some research and you'll see where I am coming from. I wouldn't be so quick to take your advice from 'big city institutions' though, they have a vested interest in making profit - you won't get impartial advice from them! ;)

The reasons why I believe there will be a fall are simple. The housing market is based mainly on two things; consumer sentiment and the availability of credit. The era of cheap credit is over, regardless of what the BoE sets as it's Base Rate, the banks will set their own as they desperately try to claw back losses from expose to bad credit around the globe. Coupled with a reluctance to lend money between themselves you will now get a mortgage with a much higher rate of interest then was previously the case, if you are offered a mortgage at all! The deposit you'll need is also now in the order of 20 - 25%. This hits FTBs particularly hard, so you have far fewer people coming into the market at the bottom. That then prevents people from moving up the ladder because no-one can afford to buy their home, but they probably would struggle to get a new mortgage anyway because they're already leveraged to the hilt. Prices will then naturally have to reduce to a more realistic level.

There are a load of other factors which complicate this further. As a nation we have a credit burden of something like £1.75 Trillion. A percentage of the Nation are overburdened with unsecured (and secured) debt. As servicing that debt becomes more expensive (credit card rates being increased, application criteria being tightened) more and more people are going to go under. A glut of homes will flood the market, most sold at auction having been repossessed. You can add to that the properties flooding the market from BTL landlords selling to make most of the favorable CGT changes in April. This will further suppress property prices.

Consumer sentiment is a big issue. If property is increasing in value they'll spend money on the high street, if property is decreasing then they won't. Consumers that don't spend money cause a recession, which is what we shall have shortly. The signs of this are everywhere - walk down any high street and look at the sales on already (before Christmas!), look at the discounts being offered. If stores were hitting sales targets they'd keep rices high, their hands are being forced because this Christmas is dreadful for retail.

There's far more I could detail, but I have given an overview. As I said, don't listen to me - research yourself.
 
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Anyone who bought expecting prices to only ever rise was foolish. Over the long term (say 25 years) prices always rise, but that only works if you don't plan to move. If you're looking at shorter term then prices can and do regularly go up and down. This is where the BTL's looking for quick money, or those who bought somewhere too small or in the wrong area for them planning on trading up will lose out.

When we bought 2.5 years ago, we actually planned for stagnation or a drop with our purchase, although it's actually risen by over 40%, we didn't expect that at the time. We didn't take every penny we could get, only what we needed to buy somewhere that, if necessary, we could live in for a while to ride through any issues.

Bar - You've forgotten that most first time buyers are couples, which makes living at home a lot less attractive, and also increases the income available to run the household quite significantly.
 
Bar - You've forgotten that most first time buyers are couples, which makes living at home a lot less attractive, and also increases the income available to run the household quite significantly.

With respect Dolph he has quoted figures based upon the assumption of a young couple.

The rest of your post was a good read however.
 
Bar - You've forgotten that most first time buyers are couples, which makes living at home a lot less attractive, and also increases the income available to run the household quite significantly.

I included couples in my example as a combined income.

It depends on how serious the couple are - I mainly go on my peer group and I am the rarity in the group as I am married with three kids (daughter born on Friday :D )

Even with a larger income (say a combined income of £40k) a lot of first time buyers have personal loans / car loans / credit cards that need paying.

I just think that the house price to income ratio is too big.

I think we will see a fairly dramatic fall up until the summer and then things might start to recover by Q3.
 
I included couples in my example as a combined income.

It depends on how serious the couple are - I mainly go on my peer group and I am the rarity in the group as I am married with three kids (daughter born on Friday :D )

Even with a larger income (say a combined income of £40k) a lot of first time buyers have personal loans / car loans / credit cards that need paying.

I just think that the house price to income ratio is too big.

I think we will see a fairly dramatic fall up until the summer and then things might start to recover by Q3.

This is what I get for posting before my second cup of coffee....

I would say, however, that over £1000 a month disposible or semi-disposible income is plenty to live comfortably on if you can manage your finances reasonably well. The real problem is people are either unable or unwilling to control their spending, rather than the money isn't there to live on. There is a curious belief that's sprouted (probably from the mid 90's) where buying a house is easy, where traditionally, this has never been the case (ask parents or grandparents about buying their first home). It takes sacrifice and hard work, and that can't be replaced with credit.
 
This is what I get for posting before my second cup of coffee....

I would say, however, that over £1000 a month disposible or semi-disposible income is plenty to live comfortably on if you can manage your finances reasonably well. The real problem is people are either unable or unwilling to control their spending, rather than the money isn't there to live on. There is a curious belief that's sprouted (probably from the mid 90's) where buying a house is easy, where traditionally, this has never been the case (ask parents or grandparents about buying their first home). It takes sacrifice and hard work, and that can't be replaced with credit.

I agree absolutely.

Thats why I mentioned the attitude of a lot of FTBs. They are generally not willing to accept the sacrifices you have to make becoming house owners. It is the same attitude that causes so many problems with people having kids and not willing to make the appropriate sacrifices. But thats another topic entirely.
 
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