Ok, my opinion still stands. Who of us really knows enough about it? It is as interdisciplinary as it can get...
The armed forces.
- Thread starter Zefan
- Start date
Ok, my opinion still stands. Who of us really knows enough about it? It is as interdisciplinary as it can get...
TBH it seems to be the overriding trend in threads like this, the vast majority of lifelong civilians post with absolute certainty about a life and group of people they have no real knowledge on
TBH it seems to be the overriding trend in threads like this, the vast majority of lifelong civilians post with absolute certainty about a life and group of people they have no real knowledge on
So tell me, who are the people who have the *real knowledge* on this? The therapists of the soldiers? The policy makers in london? The military commanders?
The soldiers, they are the only ones who know exactly what they've been through.
People who have served, there are people in this thread that have served in the RAF, RN and British Army and posted the facts. As usual their posts are largely ignored in favour of nitpicking the arguements of people who make arguements a poster disagrees with, and has no more real knowledge than them.
This isn't a dig at you, but it is what the vast majority of this thread consists of
Yes and that is what the soldiers are up against on a day to day basis, could you continually make judgements and decisions that could ultimately end someones life or your own. Soldiers dont make decisions like this lightly given the chance to think about it, in reality tho' they generally have seconds to make what they hope to be the right decision. Believe me that if any injustice is made by a soldier then are accountable for it and do not get away with "it was an order so i did it". Believe it or not soldiers are encouraged to think and not just to obey every single order they have been given. Dont get me wrong they have to follow orders that is part of being in the army but to follow a morally wrong order is wrong.
True, and of course wartime situations are notoriously difficult to judge; they're not the clear-cut scenarios of Hollywood movies.
Very true, but pure ground experience doesn't necessarily mean that they understood the issues involved or the factors that led up to their experience.
The "facts" that have been posted by personnel, I am *guessing* are simply the knowledge that they themselves have been made aware of, or their personal experience. Considering that most military information doesn't become public for sometimes up to 50 years afterwards, and that most military personnel are given information on a "need to know basis", how can we ever get a balanced and informed opinion?
My take...
Suppose its world war 2 and we are being attacked because some idiots want to invade our countries, change our way of life, supress us etc. then and only then, in times of defence, I would be very respectful to all those who would give their life in order to defend our freedom against a dictator.
As for the Iraq war....this isn't WWII, we aren't being attacked....It is so sad that nowadays we seem to think that its appropriate to try and justify wars based on lies or generally to justify wars, killing of others
I have no respect for the armed forces with regards what they do in Iraq however I would never abuse them,they are just blind. Ignorance is the problem.
I believe you have to be an idiot to give your life for nationalism, political games and other ways we have invented in order to divide ourselves from other humans.
The soldiers are hugely responsible for the wars we've had. George Walker Bush hasn't killed anyone. It's the soldiers that are "patriotic", they decide to become someone else toy of force, take pleasure in "serving" their ideologies and cultural establishments, they know they are "right" to do this job and go and kill other human beings etc.
People MUST begin to take responsibility for their positions/jobs and actions.
It's not only politicians fault what happens in the world. We need to look at everything.
After all lest we forget that when Hitler's soldiers were questioned in Nuremberg court for what they have done all they were saying was: "I was only doing my job". This non responsibility attitude that many adopt guarantees that we shall never come to grips with our problems.
The war "to end all wars" never done such a thing. Force always has counter force and breeds more desctruction. Violence and killing cannot do be used as tools in order to stop and change the mindset that leads to "violence and killing".
"Order" once so conceived by us is super imposed upon an existing situation(Iraq). (Through suppresion we believe we will get to the "positive").
That not only does it not resolve the situation as we had hoped but it results in a new situation being created which we think needs another plan. This sorry cycle never ends....There is never what we call "solution" but always "catching up"
Suppose its world war 2 and we are being attacked because some idiots want to invade our countries, change our way of life, supress us etc. then and only then, in times of defence, I would be very respectful to all those who would give their life in order to defend our freedom against a dictator.
As for the Iraq war....this isn't WWII, we aren't being attacked....It is so sad that nowadays we seem to think that its appropriate to try and justify wars based on lies or generally to justify wars, killing of others
I have no respect for the armed forces with regards what they do in Iraq however I would never abuse them,they are just blind. Ignorance is the problem.
I believe you have to be an idiot to give your life for nationalism, political games and other ways we have invented in order to divide ourselves from other humans.
The soldiers are hugely responsible for the wars we've had. George Walker Bush hasn't killed anyone. It's the soldiers that are "patriotic", they decide to become someone else toy of force, take pleasure in "serving" their ideologies and cultural establishments, they know they are "right" to do this job and go and kill other human beings etc.
People MUST begin to take responsibility for their positions/jobs and actions.
It's not only politicians fault what happens in the world. We need to look at everything.
After all lest we forget that when Hitler's soldiers were questioned in Nuremberg court for what they have done all they were saying was: "I was only doing my job". This non responsibility attitude that many adopt guarantees that we shall never come to grips with our problems.
The war "to end all wars" never done such a thing. Force always has counter force and breeds more desctruction. Violence and killing cannot do be used as tools in order to stop and change the mindset that leads to "violence and killing".
"Order" once so conceived by us is super imposed upon an existing situation(Iraq). (Through suppresion we believe we will get to the "positive").
That not only does it not resolve the situation as we had hoped but it results in a new situation being created which we think needs another plan. This sorry cycle never ends....There is never what we call "solution" but always "catching up"
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My take...
Suppose its world war 2 and we are being attacked because some idiots want to invade our countries, change our way of life, supress us etc. then and only then, in times of defence, I would be very respectful to all those who would give their life in order to defend our freedom against a dictator.
As for the Iraq war....this isn't WWII, we aren't being attacked....It is so sad that nowadays we seem to think that its appropriate to try and justify wars based on lies or generally to justify wars, killing of others
I have no respect for the armed forces with regards what they do in Iraq however I would never abuse them,they are just blind. Ignorance is the problem.
I believe you have to be an idiot to give your life for nationalism, political games and other ways we have invented in order to divide ourselves from other humans.
The soldiers are hugely responsible for the wars we've had. George Walker Bush hasn't killed anyone. It's the soldiers that are "patriotic", they decide to become someone else toy of force, take pleasure in "serving" their ideologies and cultural establishments, they know they are "right" to do this job and go and kill other human beings etc.
No. That's a gross mischaracterisation. The soldiers are simply doing the job they've been trained to do. Soldiers are apolitical. You can't blame them for the sins of the government; you can only blame them for any wrongs that they personally commit.
My maternal great-granduncle served in WWI and survived the battle of the Somme; my paternal great-grandfather served in WWI on the HMS Khadive; my maternal grandfather served in WWII as gunnery officer on the HMS Tacitern; my paternal grandfather served in WWII as artilleryman in the British Army of the Rhine.
They were my family; they were not mere "toys", taking pleasure in war to "serve their ideologies". They were simply brave men doing a difficult job under life-threatening conditions.
I only knew one of them personally; my maternal grandfather. He spoke about his war experience reluctantly, and refused to give any details of actual combat. As a child, I found this rather anti-climactic; as an adult, I now understand.
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Well said
You wouldn't say the same for the soldiers who served A.Hitler and executred many Jews would you? With your argument they did "nothing wrong" since they were only "doing their jobs". They weren't responsible,poor nazi soldiers....
********. You appear to have missed this:
Evangelion said:
I admit that it didn't come out well due to the typo (now corrected), but surely the gist was there?
So no, I wouldn't say the same for the soldiers who served Hitler and executed the Jews, because they committed wartime atrocities.
That's why Rommel is such a good example for this thread: he refused to execute or deport the Jews, and treated POWs and enemies alike with respect. The Afrika Korps was never accused of any war crimes. Now that's something to be proud of.
Sorry, you've confused me. A soldier presses a button, a bomb is fired on an embassy. Who was responsible for this act, the soldier pressing the button, the person who gave him the orders or the source of the orders?
Whether he is right or not to press that button, *someone* has to take responsibility. It is a chain of command, but anyone in that chain could break it.
Soldiers may be theoretically apolitical but they are still human. "Politics" is a funny word, because we are all political, politics is just a kind of group psychology or sociology combined with policy that can be applied at many levels... whether we are interested in it or not we are all involved because it applies to us.
Again, the government itself did not press that button, but they did give the orders, but then the government might be listening to a set of professional analysts who are advising them... wherein does the responsibility lie?
You wouldn't say the same for the soldiers who served A.Hitler and executred many Jews would you? With your argument they did "nothing wrong" since they were only "doing their jobs". They weren't responsible,poor nazi soldiers....
Actually he didnt...........
Both. The source of the order, and the soldier for following it. Firing on an embassy is against the rules of engagement.
Agreed. Soldiers are apolitical, but they still bear personal responsibility for their own actions. I would not condemn a soldier for going into Iraq. I would, however, condemn him for any atrocities he might commit there.
The responsibility lies with both, of course.
It seems then that every soldier who has killed is a murderer and must be held accountable for their action, regardless of if they are fighting to save our country or fighting in another country for other reasons.................so you back them if they are fending off attackers to our own country and salute them if they die defending your country - however if their on foreign shores fighting other battles for other reasons, you want nothing to do with them and their death means nothing.......... Either you respect them or not, they fight for their county as they are told to, they fight in other countries again as theyre told too, Thats the nature of their job they do, and do not get to pick and choose where they fight like you pick and choose to respect there actions or not
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