2008 French Grand Prix - Race 8/17

See, I'm not sure I ever got why people hated him so much (aside from his obsession with the phrase 'for sure'). He was always erratic to say the least, but enough to actually draw hate?

Nope, don't get it.
Had fast car but didn't deliver results (to begin with).
Lots of babysitting by Schumacher.
Random mistakes.
Could only win by leading off the line.
Generally irritating when talks.

Petty? Hell yeah. However he has lost all those bar the last one (;)) this season. Consistent and quick with few(er) mistakes. GJ to him.
 
Bit bored so I've done some analysis on points scored since Brazil 07 until now:

Lewis: 40
Kimi: 53
Kubica: 58
Massa: 61

Heh. And yet people are still saying 'oh, Ferrari should defer to Kimi, he's clearly so superior to Massa'.

Methinks they don't have a damned clue :)

I'm not sure you could even say that Raikkonen is actually a much better driver. Might have been able to a few years back. Maybe even able to say it last year.

Not this year.

I'd have said it's awfully close now. And while stats can be made to say whatever you like, the fact is....Massa has been outscoring Kimi. So can we finally take him seriously as a title challenger?

Please?

***edit***

Had fast car but didn't deliver results (to begin with).

Something he shares with a lot of drivers over the years.

Lots of babysitting by Schumacher.

Well hell, if you're given the chance to be helped into the pointy end of F1 by a seven time World Champion, you really ought to take it....

Random mistakes.

Nothing like Hamilton, then. I mean, he's only thrown it right off the road in Brazil for no real reason. And forgetting to engage the right car mode before the start in Bahrain. And missing the flashing red light, the radio warnings and the pair of cars parked right in front of him in Canada.

;)

Could only win by leading off the line.

Sign of the times. Helluva risky proposition when you have to overtake on-track!


Generally irritating when talks.

Give you that one.


Consistent and quick with few(er) mistakes. GJ to him.

I swear, the entire grid (and most of this forum) is waiting for the old Massa to re-appear. I think they might be disappointed.
 
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Two things from that race for me...

Firstly, Massa. Dunno what it is about him but I just can't bring myself to like him. He's a bit too full of himself at times for my liking, even for an F1 driver. Perfect example of this was the end of this race when he's punching the air and sticking his index finger up in his "I'm number one" jesture. Err, you only won the race because Kimi had problems! Yes I know a win is a win but please refrain from the "number one" gestures when you've been gifted the win, it just makes you look stupid. Kimi would have crushed him if it were not for the exhaust problems.

I was actually thinking about Massa during the pre-race interview with Lewis, where he commented on a friend saying "anyone can win from the front...". To my knowledge, this was the first race Massa has won from anywhere other than pole and he only won this one because Kimi had problems. Basically Massa can't win a race unless he leads it from the start.

Other thing that's bother me a bit was Trulli on the last lap (or penultimate) when Keikki nearly passed him. Anyone else think Trulli's move was a bit out of order? Keikki was fully alongside Trulli and Jarno just moved over on him and forced him clean off the road at the chicane. Borderline dangerous driving if you ask me.
 

So, because he only won due to his major rival hitting problems....he shouldn't celebrate his win?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Other thing that's bother me a bit was Trulli on the last lap (or penultimate) when Keikki nearly passed him. Anyone else think Trulli's move was a bit out of order? Keikki was fully alongside Trulli and Jarno just moved over on him and forced him clean off the road at the chicane. Borderline dangerous driving if you ask me.

No, I mentioned earlier in the thread - I'm sure that McLaren should be complaining about that. But given that they didn't moan when Heikki got given that BS grid penalty for not really blocking, I can't see them making a complaint about Trulli.
 
Two things from that race for me...

Firstly, Massa. Dunno what it is about him but I just can't bring myself to like him. He's a bit too full of himself at times for my liking, even for an F1 driver. Perfect example of this was the end of this race when he's punching the air and sticking his index finger up in his "I'm number one" jesture. Err, you only won the race because Kimi had problems! Yes I know a win is a win but please refrain from the "number one" gestures when you've been gifted the win, it just makes you look stupid. Kimi would have crushed him if it were not for the exhaust problems.

I was actually thinking about Massa during the pre-race interview with Lewis, where he commented on a friend saying "anyone can win from the front...". To my knowledge, this was the first race Massa has won from anywhere other than pole and he only won this one because Kimi had problems. Basically Massa can't win a race unless he leads it from the start.

Other thing that's bother me a bit was Trulli on the last lap (or penultimate) when Keikki nearly passed him. Anyone else think Trulli's move was a bit out of order? Keikki was fully alongside Trulli and Jarno just moved over on him and forced him clean off the road at the chicane. Borderline dangerous driving if you ask me.


Who is Keikki :P ?
 
Dont know if its been mentioned...

Kimi WILL take an engine change (no penalty).
Vetel backs the stewards decision on the Hamilton drive through.
 
So, because he only won due to his major rival hitting problems....he shouldn't celebrate his win?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Try actually reading what I said before posting sarcy comments.

I said that a win is a win and didn't suggest he didn't celebrate. I was referring specifically to his "number one" gestures which I think are a little too far. Fair enough he can celebrate winning but to suggest that he won because "he's number one" or "he's the best" is taking the mick. He won because Kimi had trouble not of his own making.

Massa still isn't the real deal I'm afraid. He's proved repeatedly that he can only win from the front. If he doesn't get pole, he's screwed.
 
He [Hamilton] puts a lot of pressure on himself. I fear that in order for him to become a balanced non-hot-headed racing driver it may require him to lose this years WDC.

The pressure is on him because he is now the team-leader. When McLaren got rid of Alonso, they made it pretty clear that they were now going to give Hamilton full backing. Hamilton knows this and thus puts pressure on himself.

Its much easier when you have a more illustrious team-mate taking all the heat. It allows you to concentrate on the job at hand, rather that worry about screwing up or not scoring enough points. This year, every time he gets a DNF, its major pressure on him, as he is the guy expected to score big points. Heikki can keep finishing 4th in the remaining races and be safe in the knowledge that he has done a good job. If Hamilton finished 4th in the remaining races, he would have failed spectacularly.

This is exactly the reason why I said getting rid of Alonso was a very very bad choice, if McLaren were serious about winning races/WDC/WCC. If however, they wanted a nice happy family, then they made the correct decision.

Oh and Heikki did a good job today. As good as could've been expected of him. This is his 2nd good result in 8 races.

I also stated how important this year was for Hamilton. This still stands. If he is to become a future great, in the same category as Prost, Senna, MS, etc, then he must finish in the top 2 or 3 in the WDC, given that McLaren have the 2nd best car in F1, this year.

Silverstone next.
 
Firstly, Massa. Dunno what it is about him but I just can't bring myself to like him. He's a bit too full of himself at times for my liking, even for an F1 driver. Perfect example of this was the end of this race when he's punching the air and sticking his index finger up in his "I'm number one" jesture.

He won the race and finished in No.1 position.
He is now leading the WDC, in No.1 position.
Thats probably what his gesture was about.

Oh and a win is a win is a win. If Kimi didnt have problems, he mightve won. If Hamilton wasnt demoted, he mightve won. If it had rained, then anyone mightve won.

What counts is the fact that Massa crossed the line first.
 
There seems to be this peculiar thing going on. Everyone can see Massa doing well right now (unless they're ******* blind), yet every race weekend - 'oh, he'll bin it'.

Totally agree.

I think some forum members influence others into believing things like 'Massa cant finish a race' or that 'Button is a smooth, top-class driver'.

At the end of the day, you have to see the results for yourself. Massa has been in terrific point scoring form of late and apart from when he went off, all by himself in the first race of the season, he seems to have learnt how to drive without driver aids.

He has the best car under him and is in 1st place. He cant do more than that.
Hamilton has the 2nd best car under him and should, by right, only be behind the 2 Ferraris, yet is actually behind Kubica, as well.

From what I can see, Massa and Kubica are the star drivers, in the WDC, so far this year.

I have to say though, I feel that Kimi and Hamilton will both overtake Massa in the WDC, but thats just a prediction. Nothing more.
 
Can i just ask why people are saying the McLaren is the 2nd best car? What is it being based on considering they are 3rd in the constructors championship by 16 points and 4 in the drivers championship.
Are we saying they have the 2nd best car but **** drivers or what?
 
*looks at Massa's points tally*

*looks at Raikkonen's points tally*

Uh huh. Brilliant idea. Hold back the guy who has scored more points....

There seems to be this peculiar thing going on. Everyone can see Massa doing well right now (unless they're ******* blind), yet every race weekend - 'oh, he'll bin it'. Remind me again, who's leading the championship? Who's scored 48 points in the last six races, winning three times? On that score, who has won the most times so far this year? Who is tied for the most podiums so far?

Good heavens! It's Massa! How on Earth did that happen?

Might it have happened because he has serious talent? And that he has a very good car under him? And that he was mentored by one of the best ever in this business?

So why the flying **** are people not taking him seriously???

Serious talent my bottom, it's a sad reflection on the need for a top car that this monkey is winning anything. Even an over the hill JV had him matched for pace together in the sauber. The only reason he got a ferrari drive in the first place was because of who his manager is.

Nothing pre- ferrari of any of his drives sticks in the mind apart from his erratic style. Stick him in a car that isn't the best on the grid and watch him bin it again. Only because the ferrari is so good he looks half decent.

He wins from pole and thats about it. A test driver style of driver. Not one of his drives sticks out as great. Kimi's had a run of bad luck and isn't far behind him.

Massa doesn't have the ability to have done in the 2nd best car what Kimi did at mclaren. No one wanted massa, yet somehow he ended up with the best seat on the grid. Who else would have took him if not ferrari?

Force india? Red Bull?

Lets see Massa win a few races where he isn't on pole and can drive away putting test driver laps in.
 
JV as good as Massa in that Sauber? Bwahaha, I genuinely did think Massa did well in the last season at Sauber. As I remember, his results were mostly better than Villeneuve's, he finished in the points more than him also, retiring only twice in the season. (For reasons I can not remember)
 
Even the biggest Massa fan has got to think it was a bit of a leap going from being a meh Sauber driver to replacing Rubens in a Ferrari. As Danny said, it is purely down to who his manager is. I don't think he is good enough for Ferrari, there are plenty better than him.
But then again, i dare say he is cheap. Does anyone have the salaries list that ITV where quoting at the weekend? 20m for Hamilton Vs 3m for Kubica!!!!!
 
I couldn't believe how much Button was still on, was it Ryder who said it was down to his proven race winning pedigree? :D
One race does not justify such a high salary.

Regarding Massa replacing Rubens at Ferrari, meh, what was required to fill that role? Ability to let Schumacher pass you, ability to drive a bit slower so as to slow down the rivals... I'd say it was the perfect replacement, backfiring when he displayed a desire to win. Rubens had already had his soul taken away from him.
 
But Massa was also going to be going forward for the future. I could understand signing him on a 1 year contract if that's all he was going to do, but he was going to be the future after MS.
I would love to see Alonso and Kimi at Ferrari, not cos i am a huge Ferrari fan, but i think it would be a great combination.
 
Can i just ask why people are saying the McLaren is the 2nd best car? What is it being based on considering they are 3rd in the constructors championship by 16 points and 4 in the drivers championship.

If you look at McLaren's fastest lap times in races, qualifying and testing you will agree that they and Ferrari have the best cars. Generally, the advantage moves from one to the other, depending on the race track, with Ferrari having the overall edge. Then come the rest of the pack. Its widely recognised in F1 circles that Ferrari and McLaren have the best car. no one disputes it.

Are we saying they have the 2nd best car but **** drivers or what?

Well, you know my view on Heikki. The dude lacks point scoring ability. Plain and simple. Similarly, it would appear that Hamilton has gone off the boil also. This would account for their lack of points and the fact that they are so far off in the WCC. Had they not let Alonso go (another thing I keep banging on about), they mightve been leading the WCC and Alonso mightnt be leading the WDC, but would certainly be up there.

Ron Denis in his old age is getting too emotional and its hurting the team, big time. Rather than try and win championships, it would appear, he is more interested in creating a harmonious environment and basing the team around Hamilton. This would not have happened when Prost/Senna were driving/squabbling/arguing, when Denis fought tooth and nail to keep both drivers. The Alonso firing and the 1-man-team approach is a big gamble. It doesnt look like its paying off as Hamilton doesnt seem to have the consistency he had last year. The pressure of being No.1 is definitely showing, where he feels he needs to be competing with the Ferraris - we saw this yesterday, where he was totally over-driving the car, repeatedly, lap after lap. If you compare him with Kubica who is under no pressure - he drove the race to the best of his abilities, without worrying about how fast his competitors were going or getting frustrated.

I couldn't believe how much Button was still on, was it Ryder who said it was down to his proven race winning pedigree? :D
One race does not justify such a high salary.

Why do you think I keep saying that Button is just happy to turn up to races, do the minimum and pick up pay cheques? He doesnt want to extend himself. He doesnt want to challenge himself. Which I guess is fine if Honda are happy to continue to pay top whack for him. I mean, what competitve driver would willingly say on national tv that they are placing their hopes in the 2010 car. This would mean that Button is very happy to write off year after year without winning or scoring points. I believe they call this type of driver, a 'journeyman'.

I think if Honda were to ever get a car capable of winning races (on pace and not because it rains or similar), then they would ditch Button in a second. I think Brawn will be quite ruthless. For the time being though, with the car being so bad, Button will suffice.
 
JV as good as Massa in that Sauber? Bwahaha, I genuinely did think Massa did well in the last season at Sauber. As I remember, his results were mostly better than Villeneuve's, he finished in the points more than him also, retiring only twice in the season. (For reasons I can not remember)

The point is he didn't blitz JV even though JV was finished. JV had huge troubles with the crude antilock braking system sauber ran and still massa was never far from him. The 2nd half of the season JV was matching his pace and despite a horrid start to the season finished just 2 points behind massa in the standings.

Thats how good Massa is. A driver well past it could just about match him. The same is true for heidfeld.
 
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