Publishers to fine 25,000 game pirates

lets just say i downloaded FlatOut2, which i didnt
so if i didnt have the funds to buy the game anyway....have bugbear still lost out on 20quid.

Nope, because you didn't download it ;)

If you don't have the funds to buy a game, then you don't have the right to own that game.. it really is that simple.

People can argue blue in the face about theft and loss of earnings and whatnot, but at the end of the day, if you don't pay for the software then what right have you got to use it?
 
Nope, because you didn't download it ;)

If you don't have the funds to buy a game, then you don't have the right to own that game.. it really is that simple.

People can argue blue in the face about theft and loss of earnings and whatnot, but at the end of the day, if you don't pay for the software then what right have you got to use it?

so you decide to ignore the point which you brought up about bugbear missing out on revenue
 
if you don't pay for the software then what right have you got to use it?
I don't think anyone's arguing against that fact. It's the whole "not a sale = loss" argument given by a lot of the publishers that is being debated now.
 
so you decide to ignore the point which you brought up about bugbear missing out on revenue

imo, yes bugbear did miss out on revenue. Stating that you didn't have the finances is irrelevant, because if you can't afford the game then you can't have the game.

Don't have enough money? Tough luck!
Owning a game is *not* a right. It's a purchase.

So you decided to ignore the point about you having no right to the game in the first place? ;)
 
imo, yes bugbear did miss out on revenue
But they didn't make a loss in a financial sense.

I think it's fair to say that people who download games wouldn't have bought the game in the first place, so at best it can be counted as a non-sale. Now this doesn't give someone the right to the game, but if 100 people download a £30 game that doesn't automatically mean that someone's books are down £3000.

If in your opinion they missed out on revenue then every time someone picks up a game box, doesn't like the look of it and puts it back on the shelf, someone's missed out on revenue. Who do you sue for that?
 
Last edited:
But they didn't lose money.
Jesus. *******. Christ.

No, in this particular instance, they didn't lose any physical assets.
In the example I posted previously, were I *would* pay for the game, they do lose out.

I seriously fear for the future of PC gaming with this kind of mindset seeming so prevalent.

I think it's fair to say that people who download games wouldn't have bought the game in the first place
I don't think this is correct.
Which I proved myself when I paid for all the games I'd previously downloaded.
If I couldn't download the games, would I just stop playing computer games altogether? No, I'd get myself to a shop.

To say otherwise is to cut off your nose.
 
You seem quite happy to deconstruct other people's arguments and getting "I support piracy" out of them. It's a perfectly valid counter-argument.
What you said made perfect sense, I retract my statement about it being completely unnecessary.

My point is that his example didn't perfectly reflect the current state of consumerism and piracy if the subject simply takes the item off the shelf, but his point still makes sense if they refused to buy the game and went home and found an illegal copy.

It is not your right to play the game illegally and then decide if it is worth the money, like I said, what if you enjoy a few aspects of the game and dislike others? If you enjoy it on ANY level how can you honestly justify stealing it? Don't bother telling me that pirates will pay up if they enjoy only a few aspects of the game, this isn't true.
 
So you agree that any figure a company touts as "losses due to piracy" are at best innacurate, and at worst pulled out of the air?
 
But what you're trying to point is wrong. You are trying to prove theft where there is none (in purely legal terms as well). There is two things that has to be understood first - let's say you are an author, you wrote an article, publishers publish your article in a glossy magazine, you get your money up front, publisher then goes on to sell their magazine in WH Smith to earn their bit. So first thing to learn and remember - author != publisher.

I didnt say anything about theft, not in a legal sense. I'm aware that copyright infringement is not technically theft, but that doesn't mean that the publisher isn't losing out on money. Or are you trying to say that copyright infringement causes no loss of income to anyone, at any point, ever?
Now - first week 10,000 people buy it, read your article and after forming their opinion do what all of us do with press - leave their respective glossy magazine copies on train, let workmates borrow it for toilet read, put it as a wrap for hamsters cage or simply throw it away in the bin.

Imagine now that publisher goes through their numbers, discover they sold 10,000 copies first week but only 5,000 second week and speculate they actually lost revenue because X copies were POSSIBLY made available to "second reader" on train, left behind for free to workmates sharing lavatory or consequently pushed down trousers by hobos plundering rubbish bins in search of insulation. And you have police and lawyers out there, kicking toilet doors to dust those half wet by now glossy magazines left on windows sills for prints, send CSI to recover half munched pages from hamsters pens and go on stripping homeless people in dark alleys in search of the "shared out" glossy magazine contents. They then write down the names of all the workmates, all the hobos and all the hamsters they could prove had access to your article within last week then leave them with letter demanding retribution of £300 based on possibility of them adding further to the "recycling chain" of that glossy magazine.

Ridiculous right? Well this is exactly what happens in this case.


It isn't at all. It is a completely different distribution model. Newspapers and magazines have a low cost, fast production base. Games have a tremendous amount of resources put behind them and are simply not comparable. If each newspaper took several years and several million pounds to make and sold for £30 each, then your example might hold water.
The "loss of revenue" with copyrights is speculative at best.
Of course it is speculative. There is no way it could be anything else, hence the completely arbitrary £300 penalty. presumably this incorporates a measure of punitive damages as well as actual costs and is based around statistics. You can argue whether £300 is the right amount, but the actual figure shouldnt make any difference in terms of principle.
At best it's a case of "what eyes don't see", if that. Let's say Big Spider flicks the switch and internet goes down for a month. Does that mean all the file sharers run to the shops to buy the game they were just leeching?
Why not? a month is not a good example, i would suspect they would simply wait until they could download again. If they had no internet for a year, and they were avid gamers, then yes, they would HAVE to go out and buy them. Do you disagree? This point is always raised by illegal downloaders, and I can never understand why it is so hard to grasp.
Then there is the issue of where does copyright infringement actually start. Because of the nature of P2P, you are presharing chunks before your download is finished. So effectively, at what point would codemasters copyrights be violated? At you sharing 3 out of 2000 chunks of someone else's folder called Pete.Sampras.Tennis.for.Sega.Mega.Drive.incl.Crack-Scissors1944 to 300 people? At you receiving 1999 or 2000 chunks of that folder? At you successfully acquiring what they presume to be what it says on the label? Do they need to prove those 2000 chunks you shared actually contained anything of theirs or do they just trust pirate word on that? And if so, if you called that folder Fanta.Receipe-Chef.Ramsey - would you get successfully sued by Coca Cola company on face value?
And most importantly - if sharing 20 chunks of 2000 of what might or might not be anything more than curiously titled binary is not a crime - then surely some publisher claiming you are doing something unlawful to third parties - such us lawyer company or your ISP deserves to be sued for libel? One, popular enough campaign among torrent users - a linux distro with exactly same title and size as presumed game download, action - reaction, one class action lawsuit.. see what I'm pointing at?
I agree with you on that. Not sure where I've said anything to the contrary.
Then there is bigger fish to fry. How would you react if concierge in the building you live in called Sony, Universal and BMG lawyers and report copyright infringement and public broadcast license violation because you played loud music at your party? This is what three strike ISP policy is. Is it ISPs place to patrol your ports and report what they presume you do to third parties? Should such a thing be encouraged at all?

Nope. But theres not much we can do about it. If people are going to pirate, at least hold your hands up and admit it instead of flapping about with some feeble justification.
 
It is not your right to play the game illegally and then decide if it is worth the money, like I said, what if you enjoy a few aspects of the game and dislike others? If you enjoy it on ANY level how can you honestly justify stealing it? Don't bother telling me that pirates will pay up if they enjoy only a few aspects of the game, this isn't true.
I think we're on the same wavelength funnily enough. I'm not defending piracy, and I fully believe that if someone wants to get a game for free then they will - and I really doubt the stories of "oh if I like it i buy it". My point was that if someone downloads a game then they wouldn't have purchased it anyway (since they're a dirty pirate), so the end result on the company finances is zero.
 
how exactly ?
if i dont have the money how on earth have they*(bugbear) missed out on revenue ?
if i took it or not they were never going to get paid either way.:p

The point is moot, you gained when you had no right to. I think this is the crux of the matter.

I used to copy games a lot when I was a kid - I couldn't afford to buy them so I copied mates games. I gained from this by expanding my games collection and I had no right to.

Whilst the games company technically didn't lose any money from my copying, they certainly didn't gain from it - which they have a reasonable expectation to do. If I have their game and play it then they quite reasonably should expect to benefit from that fact.

This is why piracy is wrong, why I no longer copy games and indeed enjoy more the games I do own - I take more care over what games I choose to buy and like having a packaged product with manuals etc on my shelf.
 
The three strike policy is never going to come in to affect. Apart from some major UK ISPs such as TalkTalk coming out and saying they'll never do it there's also massive opposition within the EU.

They implemented such a system in the Netherlands - what happened - they ended up having to cut off the government's own internet access because employees were downloading at work. Great success!
 
Uvmain i think what some people are trying to point out is. If everyone were to buy games and downloading did not exist then some of these games would not be receiving the amount of interest they currently do which in turn would decrease revenue in itself. By that reasoning Bugbear did not lose out because the person could A) not download the game and B) didnt have enough interest in it to purchase it.
a lot of people dont trust demos and reviews would then be the deciding factor on buying a game or not.
What people are doing now is downloading the game deciding whether its worth buying or not and then either comitting piracy by not buying (if they think its worth buying) or just deleting the piece of crap and therefore not comitting piracy :)
Everyone has their own logic.
 
What if your downloaded it and then bought it or downloaded it to replace a broken disk?

I downloaded MoH then bought it two weeks later *shrug*..

Although pretty much all of my games have been bought at launch.
 
What are you talking about? In your examples (doesn't matter how many you decide to use) someone taking it is depriving someone else of being able to purchase a copy. This just doesn't happen in piracy (which is why it's copyright infringement and not theft).
Er I don't think I implied that at all, in fact I explicitly said that the 'pile of games' represented downloads. Like you say, the actual number of games in the pile is irrelevant. Either way that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I am saying.
My point is that people who download the game wouldn't have bought it - regardless, so the company hasn't lost money. In both cases (person downloads game, person decides not to buy game) they have not sold a product, and they haven't lost out financially.
This is exactly the sort of baseless confused justification that annoys the hell out of me. You know this for a fact do you? that every single person who downloaded crysis would not have paid cash for it if they didn't have the resources to get it for free? If that is correct, hell whats the point of even trying to sell games, when people aren't going to buy it either way?
 
So you agree that any figure a company touts as "losses due to piracy" are at best innacurate, and at worst pulled out of the air?

Oh, of course.. I can't see any feasible way they could give an accurate number.

This doesn't mean I don't think they *are* losing out tho ;)
 
Back
Top Bottom