EU says Microsoft violated law with IE on Windows

fini said:
I said give them the choice. You're speccing your PC on the Dell site, you've picked the size of monitor, you've picked what version of Windows you want installed and then there's another box asking whether you want:
Microsoft Internet Explorer
Apple Safari
Mozilla Firefox
Opera
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and the vast majority of people will go "oh, i've used windows explorer before and liked it, i'll pick that!"

my grandparents use firefox because i put it on there PC, they have no idea of the difference and i doubt if i asked them what browser they used they'd have anything but blank expressions.

I use firefox on any home PC/laptop and my mum knows she uses firefox to use the internet, but still asks me what mozilla is fro m time to time :rolleyes:

anyway the point is, there is nothing stopping Dell and the likes whacking a free browser on all their PCs as well as the standard MS (and bloatware) install, but they don't, why? because the vast majority of people DON'T CARE! they're quite content with the microsoft one.


edit: just so my position is clear the ONLY thing i use MS for is an OS, i use VLC for my videos, itunes for my music, firefox for my browser and open office for my documents. i just hate people thinking that they should change something that doesn't need changing, if these other companies want their software out there then the need to make the same efforts the MS did originally, it's no good sitting on your arse whining because the big boy in the playground wont let you play, you get of your arse and you give a good reason to be used, you market yourself to all the big PC builders (all those competitors that i can't mention here) and you give a good reason to the average joe for why he'd want to use you
 
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fini said:
I know some people do not know what Firefox etc is - I even said that in the post you quoted. I also said most people know who/what Apple Safari is and that would be another choice to give users. Many users do not know what RAM is yet Dell etc give them a choice to upgrade their RAM when speccing their PC - why should browsers be different?
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RAM is just a number though. It's like horsepower when buying a car. People know that "more RAM means a faster computer" so they will make a decision when buying a PC on whether that "OMG pay £30 for additional 2GB!!!" button is worthwhile to them or not.

Web browsers is just brands more or less. To most people anyway. So when offered with the choice of Apple, an open source thing that a bunch of geeks wrote with a dodgy name that contains the word "Fire", or Microsoft... invariably most people would still choose the Microsoft browser. Their logic will be "oh my PC says Copyright Microsoft when it turns on so I might as well get their browser as well". The same logic is applied in other areas in life... "oh I've already got Ikea furniture so I may as well refurbish this room with Ikea stuff as well!" Once people are sold to a brand they tend to stick with it unless they have a subsequent bad experience in the future.
 
Did they not do the same thing a few years back with WMP, which laughably resulted in MS getting forced into releasing a mediaplayer-less OS, called "Windows XP N"
Dunno if they actually sold any versions, but they had to make it available :/

"A major U.K. retail store and three of the largest PC vendors worldwide still have no plans to sell the version of Microsoft Windows that does not contain its media player, five months after the version was released.
Microsoft started offering Windows XP N, a version of Windows without a bundled media player, in June of this year to comply with last year's antitrust ruling by the European Commission.

Before Windows XP N was released, the only PC vendor that said it might install the software was Fujitsu Siemens, which said it would do so on request. But Garry Owen, head of product marketing at Fujitsu Siemens Computers, said Thursday there has been no customer demand for Windows XP N.

"We haven't had customers requesting Windows XP N yet, and so as there is no demand at present, customers wanting XP N on their machine can have a PC configured with the software on a built-to-order basis from the factory," Owen said. "
 
RockLobster said:
Because Joe Public haven't got a clue. Giving them more choice isn't helping them. Comparing RAM to a browser is just stupid.
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Why - they both change the way their computer will operate - except one PC manufacturers routinely give the customer a choice over and the other they do not.

RockLobster said:
When they phone Dell for their first PC what do you think the guy on the other end is going to say. "Sir you now have a choice IE, Firefox, Safari, etc, etc." Joe bloggs is going to think WTF. The guy from Dell will just say install IE.
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Are you saying most wont have heard of Apple?

RockLobster said:
At the end of the day the EU have it in for Microsoft always have always will. I'm not a Microsoft fan boy I actually use Firefox myself but the EU are just being stupid. They are not helping end users in the slightest.
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Have you read the existing Commission decisions on Microsoft dominance?
 
It's retarded. There's 100's of things that are included in windows that could be replaced by third party. But guess what even most of us don't do that and it's a computer forum. let alone the average public.

I hope MS just keep ignoring those idiots.

I know it's due to a monopoly and the monopoly get's penalised for what competition can do. But an all in integrated OS is pretty much essential.
 
vincent1989 said:
and the vast majority of people will go "oh, i've used windows explorer before and liked it, i'll pick that!"
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Which is fine - and what a free market is all about.

vincent1989 said:
anyway the point is, there is nothing stopping Dell and the likes whacking a free browser on all their PCs as well as the standard MS (and bloatware) install, but they don't, why?
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They don't because there's already a browser installed - having two browsers sat on a PC might confuse some people so they just leave it with IE installed. If IE wasn't automatically bundled do you really think 100% of computer manufacturers would send their PCs out with IE installed without giving the user's choice?
 
fini said:
Why - they both change the way their computer will operate - except one PC manufacturers routinely give the customer a choice over and the other they do not.

Are you saying most wont have heard of Apple?

Have you read the existing Commission decisions on Microsoft dominance?
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Nathan has already posted why comparing RAM to browsers is stupid. Yes, most people have heard of Apple but that's not because of their browser or macs. Ipod anyone. ;) I don't care about the commission decisions on Microsoft dominance. As mattyfez has outlined whether you give users the choice to install media player, a browser it is a complete waste of time. Users want a computer where they can switch on, browse the net and doing a bit of word processing. Another thing, you really think vendors want to **** about installing different browsers, etc. More time, more costs awesome for the consumer that. :)
 
This is dumb, your running MICROSOFT WINDOWS. what idiot company would say "ok we have internet explorer but lets put a competitor software on our machine because we are lovely little gnomes and its a sunny day, and there are bees pollenising on our flowers and the kids are playing in the garden, its such a lovely day lets give everyone our money so we have equality in the economy oh happy joyous day of days!"

get real come on - if you want an operating system that doesnt have ie from the get go - get a bloody linux os and shut the pie hole. Its beyond ridiculous. They should be lucky microsoft allowed people to make non microsoft products on their os where they already have in place. Its stupid - give an inch, take a million miles.
 
NathanE said:
Web browsers is just brands more or less.
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During my student days I worked in a high street electronic retailers and a lot of people came in wanting to buy iPods because of the brand. Do you not think that if they were offered something Apple (for free) on their new PC instead of something Microsoft a lot wouldn't think 'oh Apple is cool, I'll go with that'.

NathanE said:
Once people are sold to a brand they tend to stick with it unless they have a subsequent bad experience in the future.
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That is fine. The idea is not to force people to use other browsers, but to give them the choice. Telling people 'here's a pen to use, though you can pop down the shop to get a different one if you like' is not a 'real' market choice because the market is lazy. A real choice is only available when the choice is active not passive.
 
fini said:
If IE wasn't automatically bundled do you really think 100% of computer manufacturers would send their PCs out with IE installed without giving the user's choice?
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Yes, it's takes more time to set up alternatives that custmores don't wont. Customers can use and now IE and thus will want it. It would be the same as windows xpN made on offer and never taken. oR maybe one or two people would. But then they would feel comftable downloading and installing it anyway.

Absolutly pointless.

How about codecs, ms paint, wmp, vista media centre, windows defender, windows firewall, Themes (plenty of 3rd party themes about). The list could go on all day. But remove them and you don't have a useable OS.

Even I want a usable os out the box and I'm sure everyone else in here does as well.
 
codec said:
They should be lucky microsoft allowed people to make non microsoft products on their os where they already have in place. Its stupid - give an inch, take a million miles.
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Are you for real? You really think developers should be thanking Microsoft for letting them create programs?
 
fini said:
Which is fine - and what a free market is all about.


They don't because there's already a browser installed - having two browsers sat on a PC might confuse some people so they just leave it with IE installed. If IE wasn't automatically bundled do you really think 100% of computer manufacturers would send their PCs out with IE installed without giving the user's choice?
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and yet not have a browser pre-installed or having to select one from a long list of meaningless names wont confuse the average joe? they don't put them on because the public AND these other companies with browsers don't give them any incentive what so ever, again, if you want to play with the big boys you can't sit in the corner of the playground and whine like a baby(well, apparently you can but it's ridiculous)

i put this to you:

if the big PCbuilders were to install the big 3-4 browsers on a computer, put all the icons on the desktop and gave the customer the freedom to pick which one do you think the average person would choose?
 
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AcidHell2 said:
How about codecs, ms paint, wmp, vista media centre, windows defender, windows firewall, Themes (plenty of 3rd party themes about). The list could go on all day. But remove them and you don't have a useable OS.
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Codecs goes to the issue of WMP again - which the Commission have already decided on.

MS Paint is so rubbish that nobody cares. If MS came out with a competitor to Photoshop and gave it away free then that would be a different situation.

Firewalls are a tricky one that I can see from both views. Its a basic way to protect the software you've bought and thus should come with it - but I wouldn't be happy if I was ZoneAlarm either...

Themes - well the operating system has to have a default theme otherwise it's unusable.

The difference between all of the ones you've mentioned and browsers is that with browsers Microsoft is using its dominant position to skew and effect the market for browsers. In doing so it is harming competition and innovation - this can be seen in IE7 still not conforming to web-standards properly.
 
RockLobster said:
Microsoft haven't forced anyone into anything. I use Firefox that was my own choice.
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Read the context of what I was saying again - I wasn't saying Microsoft was forcing anyone I was saying I'm not forcing anyone to use an alternative browser.
 
fini said:
The difference between all of the ones you've mentioned and browsers is that with browsers Microsoft is using its dominant position to skew and effect the market for browsers. In doing so it is harming competition and innovation - this can be seen in IE7 still not conforming to web-standards properly.
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And totally pointless, it's other people amking poor browsers or crap advertising. Look how much of a chunk firefox has taken from them.

The os should come complete and working for everything you would normally do at home.

Competition law is stupid, in a lot of cases like these. Should deal with buyouts, business practice and pricing. Not telling people how to make there product.
 
fini said:
The difference between all of the ones you've mentioned and browsers is that with browsers Microsoft is using its dominant position to skew and effect the market for browsers. In doing so it is harming competition and innovation - this can be seen in IE7 still not conforming to web-standards properly.
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Harming competition and innovation are you serious? Firefox, Safari and Opera have developed many innovations which IE 8 is now trying to copy. I agree the standards thing is annoying but that's because some of my fellows (developers) are too lazy to make their websites compliant.
 
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