explaining god to a 3 year old

I thought it was theory based...

Or, you know, using controlled methods to construct a theoretical explanation of how things work...

You're still investing some degree of faith in the theory though aren't you? You're also putting faith into other scientists, and the empricism itself. Admitedly, it's a more calculated investment as you are relying on 'evidence' as opposed to conjecture to form your perspective and positioning; I'd much rather read a scientific paper than seek council from a witch-doctor.

Even the likes of the theory of mavity for instance, require us to place faith in it. Einstein overthrew Newton's understanding of mavity with the introduction of special relativity despite Newton's equations being used accurately for years before-hand. We are placing belief in that our theories -- based on evidence -- are correct as opposed to alternatives. Don't be foolish to think that science has all the answers as it simply hasn't; it can only attempt to describe and predict in the simpliest way. Indeed, theories can be proven to work through accurate predictions yet can still be overthrown. We're placing belief in the assumption that we have enough of the picture to think that what we see around is actually the case when in reality we don't know what's around the corner.

I think you need to do a little brushing up on your understanding personally.
 
science is a set of rules. Anyone can follow them. Regardless of what else you believe in life. You are just saying that as way of discrediting religion.. Accept it, you can both be religion and a scientist.

No, no it is not and I could even use this statement as an argument as to why somebody who has a scientific mind could NEVER be a true believer in a higher power.

Science, as the media presents it, produces rules based on facts and data. These rules are never EVER set in stone, they are always open to scrutiny, they can be changed at any point and while people trust the ones that have stood the test of time, there is always somebody out there trying to disprove even the most trusted ideas.

To believe in God you are required to believe and indeed trust in something that has no proof and can never have proof. People present weak and indeed fabricated (in that it was generated by man) evidence in the form of bibles, tomes, historical reports etc. but nothing is ever strong evidence. It is always something that can be interpreted one way by one person and another by another.

As a scientist, this evidence is not good enough for me to form a strong belief of my own in the existence of a God. Even if it was, I would ALWAYS be open to the possibility that my belief was wrong, show me the evidence that was the case and I would form a new belief. This process is incompatible with believing in a God, no matter what.

Somebody with a truly scientific mind cannot be a true believer in God.
 
No, no it is not and I could even use this statement as an argument as to why somebody who has a scientific mind could NEVER be a true believer in a higher power.

Science, as the media presents it, produces rules based on facts and data. These rules are never EVER set in stone, they are always open to scrutiny, they can be changed at any point and while people trust the ones that have stood the test of time, there is always somebody out there trying to disprove even the most trusted ideas.

To believe in God you are required to believe and indeed trust in something that has no proof and can never have proof. People present weak and indeed fabricated (in that it was generated by man) evidence in the form of bibles, tomes, historical reports etc. but nothing is ever strong evidence. It is always something that can be interpreted one way by one person and another by another.

As a scientist, this evidence is not good enough for me to form a strong belief of my own in the existence of a God. Even if it was, I would ALWAYS be open to the possibility that my belief was wrong, show me the evidence that was the case and I would form a new belief. This process is incompatible with believing in a God, no matter what.

Somebody with a truly scientific mind cannot be a true believer in God.

And how does any of that stop someone being a scientist?
 
Yes there may be no reason to worship a God, but as I also said, science cannot reconcile everyone's need to answer the question "why", and that alone is enough for belief in God and why not? I don't necessarily agree that you cannot be completely objective and believe in God. For many people, one never needs to meet the other (and I'm of the opinion that they never need fight anyway...).

Some of the greatest minds in science and philosophy believed in God. I think it's a bit strange just to dismiss certain peoples opinions so quickly. That's really my issue there.
 
And how does any of that stop someone being a scientist?

That depends what you class as a scientist.

If we are talking somebody who says "im a scientist" then it doesn't, anybody can do that. Anybody can publish papers, attend conferences, generate results and postulate on their meaning. However, if I then discovered that they truly believed in God and even moreso, they couldnt even give a good reasoned argument for doing so, other than "well it just requires faith doesnt it" then I would probably take their work with a very large pinch of salt.

However, if we are talking about somebody who fits the bill of a true scientist, then it becomes a much more philosophical discussion and probably one that wouldn't result in me being able to accurately classify each and every single person out there who calls themself a scientist.

Call me stubborn if you wish, but I BELIEVE that my argument as to why a true believer cannot produce a truly scientific mind is correct, show me a counter argument that is strong enough and I may change my mind.

However, whether this belief is actually of any real use is debatable, as you correctly point out, anybody who is able to think in an organised manner can realistically contribute to the humanwide scientific community and I have no doubt that many people who genuinely believe in God are extremely capable scientists in the practical sense of the word. Truly scientific free thinkers though? Im not convinced and doubt I will ever be (though it isnt impossible!)
 
Don't you think people are able to believe one thing, whilst practising something else. As long as there science is done according to science rules. then there is no problem is there. Science is not a tool for the truth. It is a tool to make a predictive model of things we can see.

Your just writing words though. What you just said doesn't actually mean anything. 'Science is not a tool for the truth' You might aswell go away and wright a poem about it.
 
And how does any of that stop someone being a scientist?

Religion requires you to accept something as true based on nothing more than faith and personal conviction. Science requires rigorous testing of even your most basic assumptions. These are mutually exclusive mindsets.

However, this is an over simplified and idealistic view.

The fact is, it's impossible for even a scientist to have personally tested every scientific fact he knows. He has to trust (have faith, if you will) that the people who DID do those tests knew what they were doing.

So there is room for overlap; a religious person can be a scientist and vice versa. Taking it to extremes, however, I don't see how a creationist or flat-earthist could be a scientist.
 
I wonder how many 'God doesn't exist - O RLY? How do you know?' threads there actually are on OcUK...

A lot i would imagine. This is a good thing and wholly to be expected on a forum populated primarily by people interested in computing i reckon.

Computing requires logical thought to the extreme, when logical thought is applied to unwavering belief of something there is no tangible evidence of, questions are always going to be asked and arguments for both sides presented.

I'm pretty sure this happened throughout human history and long may it continue to do so.
 
You're still investing some degree of faith in the theory though aren't you? You're also putting faith into other scientists, and the empricism itself. Admitedly, it's a more calculated investment as you are relying on 'evidence' as opposed to conjecture to form your perspective and positioning; I'd much rather read a scientific paper than seek council from a witch-doctor.

Even the likes of the theory of mavity for instance, require us to place faith in it. Einstein overthrew Newton's understanding of mavity with the introduction of special relativity despite Newton's equations being used accurately for years before-hand. We are placing belief in that our theories -- based on evidence -- are correct as opposed to alternatives. Don't be foolish to think that science has all the answers as it simply hasn't; it can only attempt to describe and predict in the simpliest way. Indeed, theories can be proven to work through accurate predictions yet can still be overthrown. We're placing belief in the assumption that we have enough of the picture to think that what we see around is actually the case when in reality we don't know what's around the corner.

I think you need to do a little brushing up on your understanding personally.

It's probably more my definition of "faith" or "belief" that's a bit skewed, if I'm honest.
 
Religion requires you to accept something as true based on nothing more than faith and personal conviction. Science requires rigorous testing of even your most basic assumptions. These are mutually exclusive mindsets.

No they are not. It's easy to have both mindsets...

however, I don't see how a creationist or flat-earthist could be a scientist.

That depends. Lots of scientists disagree with current "provable" theories. But then I have never seen a conventionalist that has got the definition of science right.

Truly scientific free thinkers though?
of course they can be. Until God/Gods can be proven not to exist you can be both.
 
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No they are not. It's easy to have both mindsets...



That depends. Lots of scientists disagree with current "provable" theories. But then I have never seen a conventionalist that has got the definition of science right.

Assuming you are quite happy that one set of your heartfelt convictions can entirely undermine the other.

That would make you either a hypocrit or mental in some way :p

[EDIT] You have never seen a good definition of "science" because fundamentally somebody who is a good scientist will never be able to provide that to you, there is no right, no wrong, only an infinate number of shades of grey. Science is not about unmoving definition, it is about providing tangible reason for the world about us based on currently available evidence. Nothing a scientist says is ever right or wrong, however some things have more merit to more people than others. To be happy with "science" (whatever that is) is to be happy with the idea that nothing is certain. Some people find this a very uneasy feeling. [/EDIT]
 
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science is a set of rules. Anyone can follow them. Regardless of what else you believe in life. You are just saying that as way of discrediting religion.. Accept it, you can both be religion and a scientist.
I'd say increasing not, but historically you could.

I watched a program a few days ago about how Darwin, who started life as a religious man lost his faith as it became increasing apparent that the teaching of the bible were so far wide of the mark he could no longer call himself a Christian.

The unfounded faith that religion relies upon dose not lend itself to a scientific way of thinking, which is naturally sceptical and questioning. Also being a Christian would require you choose to ignore much of the work done by follow scientists as much of it directly contradicts the bible.
 
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The unfounded faith that religion relies upon dose not lend itself to a scientific way of thinking. Also being a Christian would also require you choose to ignore much of the work done by follow scientists as much of it directly contradicts the bible.

Who said that, that is simply not the case. Some decide to ignore it but there is no reason why it should be.
 
How would a Christian scientist explain dinosaurs, or evolution? Creationism goes against everything science has taught us, I fail to see how someone can be both scientist and creationist.

Easy, Genesis is allegorical and not a literal account of creation. Evolution is just the method that God has used to create the species of the world. Even me as an agnostic can answer that one. Not all Christians are biblical literalists. Those that are, are of course nuts.

I love arguments where people think that being liberal makes them more intelligent or puts them in the right.

What has being liberal got to do with belief in God? Being liberal has nothing to do with your belief in God it is more to do with your attitudes towards others belief in God. Showing such disdain towards others choices isn't liberal at all.
 
No they are not. It's easy to have both mindsets...


Care to elaborate? :)

Anyway if you read the rest of my post, you'd know I was agreeing with you anyway. Even the most intellectually rigorous scientist requires a certain amount of faith that his knowledge is accurate.
 
Only if you are a biblical literalist. Most Christians I know aren't.

[DEVILS ADVOCATE] You could argue that to fall into the group that call themselves "christians" it is a requirement that they follow the teachings of the bible. [/DEVILES ADVOCATE]

Personally I know people who claim a belief in a God as they cannot explain everything around them and cannot offer evidence that one does not exist. To me this seems like the easy way out, but that's their belief and it's their right to form it. Not one of them claims to be christian or indeed part of any religous group. Many of them would claim to be scientists.

I would argue that to label yourself as a christian and yet know that chances are if a God existed, the bible should not be taken literally, is incorrect. You are a believer, but certainly not a christian, thats something very specific and defined.

I'm in an argumentative mood today it would seem!

Heh, just noticed I even used a saying taken from biblical myth as part of my post :) Can't argue that the bible i well engrained in todays society that's for sure!
 
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