For those who are religious

[BlackDragon]

You may recall that this questionable book relates the story of God sending his son who died and rose again. That's quite a big sign.

I wouldn't say that is a big sign. It is something that may have happened 2 millenia ago, and this 'Jesus' fellow could have just been some nutcase proclaiming to be the son of god.

I remember watching a program where some mentally ill person believed he was the son of god. We only disbelieve him because we know he is a nutter. Many years ago, people would not have been so widely educated and would find it difficult to tell the difference between a nutcase and the real thing.

In my opinion, of course.

 

[RDM]

Well if the Bible is true and God is all almighty being who created the world etc then demanding worship maybe isn't unreasonable?

Personally I think it is. Should I demand worship from my daughter because I helped create her?

One of the attributes of God is holyness and in his presence sin cannot be tolerated. To satisfy these claims then it is only those who have sins forgiven that will one day be in heaven.

Is this actually in the bible or one of those things extrapolated from a couple of verses?

Your argument about being a good person is a popular one too. We all want to be recognised for any good that we do, however, the Bible states that any goodness that we do is worthless in the eyes of God. Instead it is a work of faith and not anything to do with works or goodness.

But we are talking about an atheist here. He isn't doing good because he wants God to let him in to heaven, he is doing good because he is a nice person. Yet no salvation because he does not believe in God. Makes God seem a bit petulant to be honest. As a matter of interest what happens to those people that do not gain salvation?

Not really sure a God that thinks worship is much more important than your actions to others is worth worshipping.

You may recall that this questionable book relates the story of God sending his son who died and rose again. That's quite a big sign.

As signs go it was quite a while ago and somewhat ambiguous. It is also contradicted by another "divine" message about 1600 years ago.

Christians who know about that side of things are likely to have differing opinions on the selection process to you.

The way I understand it, there was already a very good idea of what should be canon and what shouldn't. They had their council, and came to pretty much the conclusion that was already held by the majority of people, and the heretical stuff got removed.

The key thing here though is that it was still a group of people getting together and deciding what was and what wasn't heretical. So it is quite possible that some books got missed that shouldn't have and other books got put in that really weren't canon (I am looking at you Revelations!).

 

[ringo747]

Personally I think it is. Should I demand worship from my daughter because I helped create her?

LOL, not quite! The difference is that the Bible would tell us that we are not just or holy like God is. The demands of worship is due to the attributes of God. If a person does believe the Bible then they will believe that God sent his son Jesus to die for the world. If someone appreciates this fact and is 'born again' then worship seems very reasonable based on ones appreciation of what jesus did.

Is this actually in the bible or one of those things extrapolated from a couple of verses?

The bible does talk about heaven and what won't be in heaven. Sin is one thing that wont be there. There are other references to a holy God who won't tolerate sin.

But we are talking about an atheist here. He isn't doing good because he wants God to let him in to heaven, he is doing good because he is a nice person. Yet no salvation because he does not believe in God. Makes God seem a bit petulant to be honest. As a matter of interest what happens to those people that do not gain salvation?

Not really sure a God that thinks worship is much more important than your actions to others is worth worshipping.

Again, like I mentioned above about God being classes as holy and just and righteous etc. Obviously doing good to other people makes us a good person and any good actions are commendable, I wouldn't argue against that. The thing is though that we cannot depend on this to get us to heaven according to the Bible.

If an atheist doesn't believe the bible and doesn't have a 'roadmap' then he more than likely will live as he pleases. We all do wrong sometimes and therefore who can tell if we would do something really bad that would outweigh all the good we do? We would never be able to work out the balance sheet to see if we come up good or not in Gods eyes. Hope I explained that ok.

The Bible states that those who reject salvation will be in hell. And after an event called the great white throne then it is the lake of fire as can be read in revelation.

Not really sure a God that thinks worship is much more important than your actions to others is worth worshipping.

I think good works are important to God and they certainly are for Christians as we are given guides on how to live, how to worship, directions for setting up churches etc but for those who are not Christians this doesn't matter. There are loads of passages that mention that anything we do is nothing of any value in the sight of God.

I think the best way of describing it is that the Bible says God gave his only Son to die for the world. If God is perfect and he has given all he had to forgive us, then is it not an insult that sinful humans try and offer something back to him? Hard to explain the way I want to but thats the general idea.

Hope this helps.

 

[Noel Gallagher]

After reading this thread i'm afraid i'll get lynched :O

Y'all some crazyyyyy!!!

 

[mrk]

Unrealted (or maybe not... but the Vatican at least are siding with Astronomy/Science more and mow these days...
Vatican's Chief Astronomer -Advanced Extraterrestrial Life Not An Accident. I suppose they have to evolve to side with Science though

 

[RDM]

LOL, not quite! The difference is that the Bible would tell us that we are not just or holy like God is. The demands of worship is due to the attributes of God. If a person does believe the Bible then they will believe that God sent his son Jesus to die for the world. If someone appreciates this fact and is 'born again' then worship seems very reasonable based on ones appreciation of what jesus did.

There is a big difference between reasonable and required though.

Again, like I mentioned above about God being classes as holy and just and righteous etc. Obviously doing good to other people makes us a good person and any good actions are commendable, I wouldn't argue against that. The thing is though that we cannot depend on this to get us to heaven according to the Bible.

If an atheist doesn't believe the bible and doesn't have a 'roadmap' then he more than likely will live as he pleases. We all do wrong sometimes and therefore who can tell if we would do something really bad that would outweigh all the good we do? We would never be able to work out the balance sheet to see if we come up good or not in Gods eyes. Hope I explained that ok.

But the atheist isn't being good to get in to heaven, he is just being good. It isn't about knowing if you have done well enough to get in to heaven or not. I am not disagreeing with your interpretation of Christianity I am just trying to explain why I do not feel it worthwhile.

The Bible states that those who reject salvation will be in hell. And after an event called the great white throne then it is the lake of fire as can be read in revelation.

And here is the rub, this sentence pretty much sums up why I do not think that Christianity and the Christian God is worthy of worship. It matters not what you do in life, if you do not believe in God and ask for his salvation you get to burn in a lake of fire for eternity. So I get to burn in hell for eternity, my crime? Not worshipping God.

 

[Glaucus]

The Bible states that those who reject salvation will be in hell. And after an event called the great white throne then it is the lake of fire as can be read in revelation.

No it doesn't and if you rarely think hell exists. You need to sit down and reavulate your religion.

The bible was not written in English and it contains a fair amount of translation errors.
If you look at the translations, the original words actually meant final resting place. Not hell or anything resembling Hell. Just a final resting place of non existence. Like being asleep.

Even if you believed the bible did say hell, how can you worship a god that has so much anger and evil in him.

 

[^TANK^]

Brought up believing it.

 

[Skidder]

it's all such obvious and blatant horse ****. Sorry to be pithy but I've been drawn into the circular religious argument on here before and given a more intellectual response and can't be bothered today. If you are not happy to live with uncertainty and you are easily lead, religion is a lovely cop out. Knock yourselves out but don't expect that smug feeling religion gives you to continue past death, it wont.


As to why people are of a certain religious persuasion it is mostly cultural / socialisation. It is for most people no more intellectually rigorous than the process whereby some flat cap wearing pigeon fancier says me dad was a labour man, so I'm a labour man. Or for that matter Spurs or whatever.

Just like BA, I pity the fools.

 

[ringo747]

No it doesn't and if you rarely think hell exists. You need to sit down and reavulate your religion.

The bible was not written in English and it contains a fair amount of translation errors.
If you look at the translations, the original words actually meant final resting place. Not hell or anything resembling Hell. Just a final resting place of non existence. Like being asleep.

Even if you believed the bible did say hell, how can you worship a god that has so much anger and evil in him.

Luke 16 says..

"23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."

So from that I would judge that it isn't preasant. And yes I am familiar with the other terms like Sheol and Hades which are in the Hebrew/Greek.

Please note the difference between hell and the lake of fire. Different things as you probably know.

Hope this helps.

 

[Glaucus]

if you believe that, how can you worship someone who would burn someone in hell for eternity.

Luke 16 doesn't say that hell is for ether though. The bible does say that the earth and the sin will be cleansed by fire.

Hell also contradicts

"That the price of sin is death."

Also for ever is also used in teh bible in many places, where it obviusly means for the life.

 

[Nitefly]

I certainly believe in some sort of unknown power which exists outside of and created space, time and the 'rules' and 'laws' of the universe as we know it. Whether this is a concious power, I cannot say.

 

[ringo747]

If you read up a few posts you will see what I mentioned about the attributes of God i.e. holy, just, wont tolerate sin etc. The Bible states that God has provided a way of escape from the judgement. If people choose not to accept that, and God wont tolerate sin then the consequences are stated clearly. No? As far as I remember from other threads you were brought up in a christian environment so I'm sure you understand me. Correct me if I'm wrong on that!

 

[RDM]

If you read up a few posts you will see what I mentioned about the attributes of God i.e. holy, just, wont tolerate sin etc. The Bible states that God has provided a way of escape from the judgement. If people choose not to accept that, and God wont tolerate sin then the consequences are stated clearly. No? As far as I remember from other threads you were brought up in a christian environment so I'm sure you understand me. Correct me if I'm wrong on that!

So you think it is OK, just and fair that I will burn in hell for eternity because I do not believe in God?

 

[ringo747]

So you think it is OK, just and fair that I will burn in hell for eternity because I do not believe in God?

It isn't up to what I think. It is god that deals with this. I cannot comment on what God will do with anyone else! We just go by the Bible. It isn't my word against yours!

 

[Glaucus]

It's also satan that is the one who suggest eternal life for the sinners

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And you have loads of passages stating that sin leads to death.

 

[ringo747]

It's also satan that is the one who suggest eternal life for the sinners



And you have loads of passages stating that sin leads to death.

I'm not sure what your trying to point out with this quotation really. Can you explain more?

The passage you quote refers to when eve was deceived by satan. This is the point when sin entered the world and man was put out of the garden. Yeah?

Yes, one passage I can think of is the one which states that:

"the wages of sin is death, but gods gift is eternal life"

 

[The Dread Pirate]

All Energy Flows according to the whims of the great magnet... What a fool I was to defy Him.

My religious view tbh

 

[Glaucus]

I'm not sure what your trying to point out with this quotation really. Can you explain more?

The passage you quote refers to when eve was deceived by satan. This is the point when sin entered the world and man was put out of the garden. Yeah?

Yes, one passage I can think of is the one which states that:

"the wages of sin is death, but gods gift is eternal life"

Satan is saying that god is lying and even if you sin you will live for eternity.

All of the references refering to god say the price of sin is death.

Romans 6:23:

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ezekiel 18:4:

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The earth and the sinners will be cleansed by fire.

Psalm 68:2:

2As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

there is only a couple of places that truly say hell is eternal and not just a way of cleansing the eart. But that was true how could he rid the earth of sin. Or his promise of death.

 

[ringo747]

Satan is saying that god is lying and even if you sin you will live for eternity.

All of the references refering to god say the price of sin is death.

Yes exactly, so satan was trying to deceive the woman. Do you mean that Satan was right and God was wrong?