Soldato
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As I've asked earlier in this thread - why do you believe that it is the cable making the difference rather than psychological effects?
Speaker cables, you DO get what you pay for!
- Thread starter mrk
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As I've asked earlier in this thread - why do you believe that it is the cable making the difference rather than psychological effects?
Some further thoughts:
- Do I think cables can make a difference? Yes
- Do I think that everyone can hear that difference. Nope, my mother can't tell the difference between her Denon DM30 and what I use, and clearly some people are more sensitive to how audio is presented.
- Do I believe that expensive cables are automatically better? Certainly not. I use a combination of cables, some considerably cheaper than others, but when I bought the more expensive ones, it was after a dem that I felt was sufficient to prove the value of the cable to myself.
- Go on prove it! As stated in other threads, I simply don't believe that we know what to measure to 100% understand why some kit sounds different to others. e.g. if I asked a person to show me which measurement results in why Naim has it's own presentation style, I'd be surprised if someone could give me a straight answer.
In short, go listen. If you like what you hear and can justify the cost, it's worth doing.
- Do I think cables can make a difference? Yes
- Do I think that everyone can hear that difference. Nope, my mother can't tell the difference between her Denon DM30 and what I use, and clearly some people are more sensitive to how audio is presented.
- Do I believe that expensive cables are automatically better? Certainly not. I use a combination of cables, some considerably cheaper than others, but when I bought the more expensive ones, it was after a dem that I felt was sufficient to prove the value of the cable to myself.
- Go on prove it! As stated in other threads, I simply don't believe that we know what to measure to 100% understand why some kit sounds different to others. e.g. if I asked a person to show me which measurement results in why Naim has it's own presentation style, I'd be surprised if someone could give me a straight answer.
In short, go listen. If you like what you hear and can justify the cost, it's worth doing.
i thought we were friends
(im not going to say that wasnt aimed at you, im sure you know that already. right? riiiight?)[/QUOTE]
I have no e-friends, I am a Nomad of the internets
I know I know it's all good
It simply sounds better! eg better bass, treble and mid-range with bigger sounstage etc, etc.
all that improvement from speaker cable, what were you using before chicken wire?
i don't like to rain on anyones parade really but IC's/speaker cable have marginal influences if any relative to amps/speakers/dacs in my experience and that's all you can go by.
Soldato
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Mr Sukebe won't be reading this - but as I have pointed out time and time again, there's a well known methodology of testing audio equipment that requires no scientific measuring equipment whatsoever and relies solely upon your ears.
Problem is, no-one in the speaker cable world seems to want to use DBTing as proof - to me, that is somewhat odd. You can pick out your golden eared listener or whatever, it doesn't matter, if they can prove they can perceive a difference under controlled conditions then there is no further debate!
Oh dear! If you believe this then you can't have done much listening to high-end equipment!
if you worked for Chord etc you really wouldn't want proper testing either, just like the cosmetics industry for instance ....these products prey on on the fallacy that it must be superior because it costs more even though the materials inside are more than likely identical to another product which costs 10% of it.
such as?
You tell me, what equipment have you listened too? Ever been to any Hi-Fi shows, or attended any demo sessions put on by a dealer?
you buy £100 HDMI and Optical cables also because Mr.Chord at the HiFi show wows you with his superior picture?
No. I only buy after i get something home to listen to and evaluate in my own system.
geez everyones been to hifi shows, what does that prove exactly? it just makes me laugh when i hear ppl talking about massive changes in sound from cables alone - oli collett has summed it up anyway ....if there was nothing to hide DBTing would be common place but it just isn't.
in my experience cables are subtle ....at best, and too easily favoured through pricing alone.
in my experience cables are subtle ....at best, and too easily favoured through pricing alone.
What do you mean by DBTing. I'm not familiar with this term?
I've been to a number of shows and over the years have attened lots of dems and have had quite a lot of stuff home to listen to. I would not claim to have 'golden ears,' but i've heard cables make a big difference to sound quality on many occasions.
I was once a non-believer like you! But i've always had an interest in Hi-Fi so took the time to listen - at the end of the day your ears don't lie!
Soldato
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Double blind test. Usually done for audio with an A/B/X comparator. Basically you attach one cable to A, another to B, you listen to X. X is randomly assigned as either A or B, and the goal is to identify X. This protocol eliminates both expectation bias and the placebo effect and there is no known protocol that is better.
You can do an easy ABX test using the audio software foobar to compare different bitrate mp3s vs. losless. I'd recommend having a go.
The statement "your ears don't lie" is puzzling - do you not believe in the placebo effect, expectation bias, marketing effects and whatever else? Your ears send a message that is interpreted in your brain (i'm not a biology expert, but i believe that's roughly how these things work). You can quite easily trick someone into thinking they are hearing something when they are not - I'm sure you can think of some examples. It's the same with all your senses.
So, the constant repetition by yourself and others of "go and listen yourself" is completely irrelevant - unless you really believe everything you see/hear. I hope for your sake you don't. No-one is immune to psychological effects no matter what they'd like to believe, and dismissing them in evaluating Hi-Fi is not only short sighted, it's close-minded.
As i said previously. I only buy a component after i have it home to listen to and compare to what i already have. On many occasions i've heard equipment in dealers (and at home) which i was unimpressed with. Some people may succumb to a placebo effect, and i know of dealers who use this tactic to sell certain products. But, as i said, ears don't lie, a component either sounds better or it doesn't. Listening for yourself means just that, ignore the dealer, audition at home and make your own mind up! Whats short sighted and closed-minded about that?
Cables can make subtle differences, but they are often seriously overpriced, and more dramatic changes can be made by changing componants. But if you have a system you really like, but its not quite perfect, a cable change can make the differnce.
And does it even matter if it is a placebo effect. If spending a few quid on some cables gives someone satisfaction, and they end up enjoying there system more, then who's to say it was bad value for money.
When I put my system together, I tried various CD players, amps and speakers, and once I got a combo I was happy with I took it home, alone with a bunch of cables from the shop, and just tried various cables. I spent 2 weeks with a box of sample cables, and selected the onces I liked the best, based on both listening to the system, and also the construction quality.
They were probably a little overpriced, but that didnt bother me back then, and now, 15 years later, not one cable is showing any sign of ageing. The gold bananas, and RCA connectors are still firmly attached, and being soldered on there is no problems with oxidation (and no dry joints)
While I wouldnt say there were any "spectacular" cables, some cables definalty caused my system to sound bright and harsh (Hey its an Audiolab), and other cables caused my Mission Freedoms to become loose flabby bass monsters. But there were cables in the middle which seemed to just let the system sing, not to bright, and able to bring the bass under control.
As I handnt handed over any cash for cables at that point, my selection wasnt really coloured by the fact I had handed over my money
Funny thing I do have to mention though, I was in need of a single long cable for a sub, and I was in a hurry, so picked up a "Monster" cable from a highstreet shop. Worst purchase I ever made, the RCA connector is extremely cheap, and it makes a very poor connection. High price is not a good indication of a quality product.
And does it even matter if it is a placebo effect. If spending a few quid on some cables gives someone satisfaction, and they end up enjoying there system more, then who's to say it was bad value for money.
When I put my system together, I tried various CD players, amps and speakers, and once I got a combo I was happy with I took it home, alone with a bunch of cables from the shop, and just tried various cables. I spent 2 weeks with a box of sample cables, and selected the onces I liked the best, based on both listening to the system, and also the construction quality.
They were probably a little overpriced, but that didnt bother me back then, and now, 15 years later, not one cable is showing any sign of ageing. The gold bananas, and RCA connectors are still firmly attached, and being soldered on there is no problems with oxidation (and no dry joints)
While I wouldnt say there were any "spectacular" cables, some cables definalty caused my system to sound bright and harsh (Hey its an Audiolab
), and other cables caused my Mission Freedoms to become loose flabby bass monsters. But there were cables in the middle which seemed to just let the system sing, not to bright, and able to bring the bass under control.As I handnt handed over any cash for cables at that point, my selection wasnt really coloured by the fact I had handed over my money
Funny thing I do have to mention though, I was in need of a single long cable for a sub, and I was in a hurry, so picked up a "Monster" cable from a highstreet shop. Worst purchase I ever made, the RCA connector is extremely cheap, and it makes a very poor connection. High price is not a good indication of a quality product.
never said i was a non-believer but changes in cable are subtle relative to changing equipment.
personally i can hear a much bigger difference changing opamps in my DAC which cost a fiver each than any cable upto £60 gives.
i don't find any credibility in people finding huge increases in bass/midrange or whatever from cables providing adequate ones are being used from the get go and not cables from the pound shop.
Well, it all depends what you mean by 'adequate,' and 'subtle.' To give an example, at a recent event i heard a system which cost - wait for it - upwards of £35 000. A £950 interconnect was swapped for a £2500 one by the same manufacturer. You didn't have to listen hard to hear the improvements it brought, as the improvements were obvious to everyone i spoke with in the room.
But, at the end of the day you pay your money and make your choice!
You do realise they were plants by the company
I would love to go to a Hi-fi show and have a listen, but hotel rooms will hardly be the best place to compare kit, even though you will. A proper demo at a dealer will obviously be far more productive, or a demo at another persons house.