Speaker cables, you DO get what you pay for!

[photoshop]

So guys..........................do speaker cables make a difference? Do they degrade the sound signal from amplifier to speaker...........

Is a cable with a section 2x 1.13mm2 worse than say 2x 1.50mm2 and is that worse than 2x 2.50mm2 ????

 

[oli collett]

So guys..........................do speaker cables make a difference? Do they degrade the sound signal from amplifier to speaker...........

As pointed out earlier in the thread - yes, a speaker cable will degrade the sound signal from an amplifier to a speaker, we can easily demonstrate this with some equipment. The question of whether they make a difference isn't really going to be answered unless someone proves they do with an objective listening test, and as of yet no-one has. Note we are talking here about cables that are "sufficient" for the purpose.

Is a cable with a section 2x 1.13mm2 worse than say 2x 1.50mm2 and is that worse than 2x 2.50mm2 ????

Generally speaking yes, but 1.5mm2 should be sufficient for most A/V applications given what we know about the properties of such cables.



mrk - Whilst I understand that you truly believe that the cable is making the difference, it is important to understand that by convincing yourself something is simply a placebo affect, branding or whatever does not make such affects disappear.

 

[Alexrose1uk]

It even mentions on that site that Dr.EM linked that they generally recommend 1.5mm for 15m/100w or less, and 2.5m for the majority of cases above (within reasonable limits). The major difference seems to be build quality with some of the cheaper cables, and this can cause a change in sound quality as the cables corrode etc.
Van Damme blue 1.5/2.5mm seems like a perfect compromise in this sort of situation, reputedly very well made, but doesn't cost a bomb like some brands.

 

[marl]

Its just a pity we didn't all live locally. We could bring along our cables, have a few jars, have a listen and it would be interesting to compare notes!

If interested, check out this link to read about some of the science behind cable technology!

http://www.atlascables.com/index.php?id=68

As a matter of interest, has anyone here heard a dem Nordost used to run at shows where they start off with their cheapest interconnect and work their way through their product line to their most expensive.

 

[oli collett]

If interested, check out this link to read about some of the science behind speaker technology!

http://www.atlascables.com/index.php?id=68

That site is laughable. It's just another site making claims about cables without any proof whatsoever. There is virtually no science contained within that at all - if you think that's science, then I suggest you revisit what science is all about.

For example, a sound which initially seems dynamic and fast may cause fatigue and lead to irritation over an extended listening period. At the other end of the audio frequency spectrum, a cable with an impressive bass slam may falter in the department of high frequency detail.

I'd be interested to know why one cable should have "impressive bass slam" or be "dynamic and fast". How on earth could the word "fast" be associated with a speaker cable?

The Atlas Cables cable designer's motivation is to provide products which accurately convey the maximum available information from a recording, whilst never erring towards artifice or over-emphasis

I'd like to know how their design techniques relate to this then.

1.2 Caveat emptor! (Buyer beware)

Differences in the sound reproduced by a system when different cables are substituted cannot be completely explained by current measurement techniques, even though they are clearly audible. The human ear is still the best 'test instrument' available to you and I when it comes down to evaluating system performance. Hearing is subjective and subjectivity gives rise to some fanciful claims from vendors, and controversy from critics. However, yours is the only opinion which (ultimately) matters when listening to music in your own home.

And the classic one - you can't measure it, but the differences are clearly audible and it's all subjective. Funny how it doesn't mention that such differences haven't been noticed under controlled listening conditions and it says nothing about the psychological effects associated with such subjective listening, especially considering this site is supposed to be about the "science" of speaker cables..

The rest of that site is full of pseudo-science used to justify fancy looking materials to lure gullible fools into buying into their rubbish. Quite how you can use a site like that as a reference is beyond me.

 

[marl]

quoted by oli

[I]The rest of that site is full of pseudo-science used to justify fancy looking materials to lure gullible fools into buying into their rubbish. Quite how you can use a site like that as a reference is beyond me.[/I]

I'll give you a laugh in a minute or two as i'm quite possibly one of the guilible fools you're talking about!

However, before i do that can i ask you a couple of questions.

1) What components have been used in 2-channel audio systems which have impressed you?

2) If you were chosing cables for your own system, what process would you use to evaluate them?

 

[divuk83]

Switching from Linn K20 to Naim NACA5 cable made a pretty noticeable difference to my system.

Naim amplifiers do not have inductors in the output, we prefer to use the speaker cable to provide the correct inductance and capacitance. To do so a minimum of 3.5 metres of cable is required – although the optimum is around 5 metres.

I have a homemade Hydra (4 way mains cable) that I think sounds better than a standard 4 way adapter, probably due to using the star earthing recomended for Naim kit.

At the end of the day if you can't hear any difference then fancy cables aren't for you, take them back to the shop and get a refund. Any decent Hi-Fi shop will let you demo them first anyway so this shouldn't be a problem.

Dave

 

[oli collett]

However, before i do that can i ask you a couple of questions.

1) What components have been used in 2-channel audio systems which have impressed you?

2) If you were chosing cables for your own system, what process would you use to evaluate them?

1) Speakers. Nothing else really impresses me because nothing has changed in the past 30 years as far as amps/CD players have gone, except components have got cheaper. The only progress i can see in future is that other components continue to get cheaper.

2) I wouldn't use a process - I'd go by what we know from science which has been proven, which is that a cable of sufficient thickness should do the job. I'd probably go with some studio grade 2.5mm2 stuff if I were to be setting up a new system now.


The point on science is that sites like the one you quoted use what they call "science" to try and inform consumers on what they are buying when in reality it is just marketing trickery. If it was science, they would be talking about these effects and quoting journals/papers supporting their hypothesis. It's the same kind of trickery used by nutritionists - people think that it's all science and that what they are saying has some evidence to back up their claims when the reality is far from it.

 

[divuk83]

1) Speakers. Nothing else really impresses me because nothing has changed in the past 30 years as far as amps/CD players have gone, except components have got cheaper. The only progress i can see in future is that other components continue to get cheaper.

So your saying that you think an early 80's crap CD player is no different that the high end stuff you can get today? Are you saying you think everything sounds pretty much the same? or have I misunderstood you post?

What is your current system if you don't mind me asking?

Dave

 

[marl]

oli,

you didn't answer my first question regarding systems which you have heard which have impressed you. Speakers alone don't comprise a system.

But, talking of speakers, what speakers have impressed you recently?

Divuk83 has a valid point. I heard the first CD playerrs when they came out in the late 1980's and was very unimpressed. Check out too the developments in turntable design - they've hardly stood still!

 

[Dr.EM]

divuk83, that is interesting. Didn't know that about NAIM equiptment. In this case the cable could make a difference, a degree of inductance is required for amplifier stability; leaving off the output inductor is clever in reducing component count but they must trust thier customers to follow thier advice! Amplifier instability in worse case can cause destruction of speakers and the amp itself, but otherwise will cause degredation of the sound. That said, even NAIM don't specify a particular cable, just a certain length. Mabye because inductance is an intrinsic property of any cable, regardless of fancy branding and materials

mrk, out of interest are you comparing your new cables to the old oxidised one or have you stripped your old ones back to clean conductor to make comparisons?

That atlas cables site is pretty awful. Hearing is not the most sensitive measurement for this type of thing! People do know rather a lot about human hearing, it is this knowledge that allowed the mp3 format to be developed among other things, and guess what? Measuring equiptment can easily hear the difference between mp3 and wav of any quality! The format exploits the ears lack of frequency resolution

 

[photoshop]

I know everyone is talking about speaker cables but surely it will depend on the amp and speakers also?

1. Would anyone notice the difference with a cheap cable (say under 1.25mm2) on average residential AV system?

2. OR would the difference only be noticeable on a top-mid to high end system?

As the Onkyo 606 is the flavour around here and over at AVF (which I consider to be a budget amp - don't take that the wrong way). Pair that with say 1.20mm2 of 5m runs to left and right speakers. Play a film and observe. Then repeat the test with 2.50mm2 cable and repeat test. Would there be difference to the sound?

 

[divuk83]

divuk83, that is interesting. Didn't know that about NAIM equiptment. In this case the cable could make a difference, a degree of inductance is required for amplifier stability; leaving off the output inductor is clever in reducing component count but they must trust thier customers to follow thier advice! Amplifier instability in worse case can cause destruction of speakers and the amp itself, but otherwise will cause degredation of the sound. That said, even NAIM don't specify a particular cable, just a certain length. Mabye because inductance is an intrinsic property of any cable, regardless of fancy branding and materials

Naim make their own speaker cable designed to work specifically with their kit. They also supply their own DIN cables with all their components.

Dave

 

[oli collett]

So your saying that you think an early 80's crap CD player is no different that the high end stuff you can get today? Are you saying you think everything sounds pretty much the same? or have I misunderstood you post?

What is your current system if you don't mind me asking?

Dave

As I stated earlier in this thread, asking questions about my system/my beliefs about best components aren't at all relevant and are somewhat diverting the thread. But since you asked, here's to another many more pages of discussion and circles...

That wasn't exactly what I meant on CD players - it's well known the first generation models were problematic, but I have not seen any evidence to suggest that the gap between low end and high end CD players are anything like people like to make them out to be. The point is that I believe that a decent CD player is acoustically transparent to another and I don't believe anyone could tell the difference (yes, that includes DACs). If someone would point me to some evidence that proves this wrong please do because I've not seen any.

With this in mind Marl, to answer your question, out of components I do believe speakers make a system. Yes sources and amplifiers are necessary, and the amplifier may or may not be more important depending on listening levels, but the fact is speakers make by far the most difference to a system (well, along with room treatment but that's another matter). If you don't believe me, just take a look at the difference in output of a decent amplifier, CD player and a speaker - it's obvious where the weak link is.

 

[marl]

oli,

i agree that speakers can make a system. But you still haven't answered my question about the composition of systems you've heard which have impressed you.

I'm not asking you to tell me what your system is. Just systems you've heard which have impressed you, whether at shows, dealers or friends.

 

[Dr.EM]

I know everyone is talking about speaker cables but surely it will depend on the amp and speakers also?

1. Would anyone notice the difference with a cheap cable (say under 1.25mm2) on average residential AV system?

2. OR would the difference only be noticeable on a top-mid to high end system?

As an AV amp, I assume these are connecting to your "satellite" speakers which are supported by a sub too (5.1)? In this case, the power to the satellites should be minimal as most energy is below 80hz (especially in films) and so smaller cable should suffice. You can get 1.5mm so cheaply (my link shows it for about 50p/metre) that you may as well use that, unless of course you need to make it less visually intrusive?

divuk83, it looks like NAIM are making you use thier connection leads! Even the speaker ones have a unique plug it appears. The DIN type connection is good in some ways at least, as it minimises any ground loop effect. If I had built my amplifier as one multichannel unit, I would have used this type of connection myself. The speaker cable I'm a little dubious of, the output inductance really isn't especially critical, there just needs to be some! But anyhow, you must buy from them to get it equipped with that connector.

 

[oli collett]

oli,

i agree that speakers can make a system. But you still haven't answered my question about the composition of systems you've heard which have impressed you.

I'm not asking you to tell me what your system is. Just systems you've heard which have impressed you, whether at shows, dealers or friends.

I know Marl, because as I've repeatedly stated, it's completely irrelevant, and if you do think it's relevant then you are completely miss-understanding my argument. It would be relevant if I was saying "In the systems that I've heard, speaker cables didn't make a difference". I'm not saying that.

 

[DreadNiK]

Not to re-spark this debat again but I thought I'd post an update as it's been a while since I replaced the LS2s with the QEDs.

I'm now completely satisfied that the cables do give a different sound that's wider and carries better clarity of details. I've bene trying to tell myself the past week that it's just a placebo as others have mentioned but as I re-watch movies (both DVD and BluRay) as well as breaking out old but good albums I can't help but hear a difference in background instruments popping out better than before and the soundstage being wider. Nothing else has changed, I've not changed sound card drivers or changed amp settings or speaker position and it's not a placebo on this occasion because I'm not normally the kind of person that is affected by this sort of thing so am now fully satisfied in the new cables for 2 reasons.

1: The cable quality and "tuck away-ability" is way higher than the LS2, the LS2 were solid core so not easy to tuck away.

2: The price was double the LS2 but the quality of cable and terminations are much higher and should last much longer than the 2 or years I had the LS2 for. Some might say I'm probably trying to convince myself that the extra cost was worth it but this isn't the case. I budgeted for them and this was no issue.

So that's my 2ps!

LOL!

That's priceless...

Fair enough that if they are better for tucking away and seem like they will last longer but saying something like 'I'm satisfied it isn't just the placebo effect' based on purely your own subjective experience shows a total misunderstanding of the placebo effect and the point of randomised double blind trials.

My fronts have some QEDs and I too BELIEVE they sounded better than the cable I was using before...however I also KNOW that the fact that I believe this means absolutely nothing, not only that but the fact that other people believe it as well also proves absolutely nothing (apart from the minor value to be extracted from believing you have superior sound to what you had previously even when you may well not, and I get even less value from that because due to my apparently better understanding of the scientific method).

 

[mrk]

Priceless? ok whatever you say - You seem to like telling people what you think they're hearing a lot. Suppose it's to be expected though from hifi forum style replies.

Dr EM, I don't know if the previous cables were oxidised or not but assumed they were, they were solid core and were using soldered on terminations (done by the shop I got them from) - the banana plugs were not easily removable and I don't have decent quality solder to re-attach them back on if I cut the cable down. I thought it better just to buy better cables altogether that suited my setup more instead and sell the old ones.

 

[divuk83]

Dr.EM: You don't have to use Naim speakers plug or cables, you can even use RCA instead of DIN if you wanted to on all of the more recent naim kit. Naim speakers plugs are supplied with all amps and speakers, but you can use banana plugs if you want.

oli: I'm only curious as I'm wondering that if someone who thinks that most components are much of a muchness in terms of sound quality and haven't changed much in the last 30 years (with the exception of speakers), then you won't able to hear any kind of a difference in cable either. Theres nothing wrong with that as everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to make there mind up themselves. I was just wondering.....

Dave