MONACO Grand Prix 2009 - Race 6/17 Official GP Thread

[Flibster]

I'd love to see one too, but I can't see them building an oil burner to beat the Audi

Top marks to Acidhell on all the additional info, I'd vote for him to be the official creator.

If a diseaseal win by a big margin again this year, I can see the rules getting adjusted again.

Which would be good for Ferrari.

 

[Sparky]

I think Buttons luck is about to run out, it has to. Doesn't the Reb Bull have the new diffuser now, I expect Webber to go well round monaco and get his first win, hopefully.

Sort of but it is far from the finished article.

 

[FrankJH]

Button is a decent driver, but I see nothing to indicate he's one of the best; certainly he hasn't shown it in any other season. In his first season he was outclassed by Ralfy - a second string driver if ever there was one

And how many years had Ralf been around...hmmm yeah a really great comparison there then

Without even considering the fact that the Williams was probably more suited to Ralf due to him already being in the team

- in his second season he was outclassed by Fisichella (who Heikki beat in his first season)

and who was Trulli's personal manager at the time.... and also happened to be Button's team boss.....none other than Flav, the same person who recently called Button a sleeping policeman/concrete bollard or some such

Yeah like thats a reasonable situation to start with

In his third season he beat Trulli, not a bad season really, but then you look at what Alonso was able to do with a roughly equal car the season after and it doesn't look so hot.

1st off - no way at all where they the roughly equal car, its like saying LH is in an equal car now than he was last year just because its a McLaren Mercedes. Complete tosh

Not only that but yet again Flav was favouring his main driver (he was again personal manager to Alonso at this time - like it doesnt pay him to favour one particular driver)

At BAR he beat an ailing Villeneuve who was way past his prime in 2003, and scored a good number of podiums in 2004. But, here's the thing, shouldn't a top notch driver in a car capable of getting 12 podiums and 2nd place in the constructors have managed to win a race or two? 2005 was a rotten season for BAR, and Jenson probably got what he could from it.

BAR was never a decent team , for the most part it was always concerntrated around JV, and they got caught out by JB absolutely trouncing him into retirement (in F1 terms anyway)



Not only that but with Ferrari and McLaren sharing 90% + of the wins and major points - it was a rarity for anyone else to get on the podium let alone get a win

That's not the record of one of F1's greats; it's the record of a decent driver a little off the top tier. This year he's been given the best car on the track and made the most of it - credit to him - but he's not the best driver on the grid by any measure.

Hamilton was last season, maybe last two - Alonso was for his two championship wins , and you arent even giving Button credit for the tricky conditions he has had to win in (all drivers said the light in Aus was bad, the changable weather (on wrong tyres a lot of the time) in one if not two races

Of course it helps that he has a decent car for once - and a boss thats actually working WITH him, he deserves a hell of a lot more credit than you are giving him thats for sure

 

[sunama]

High praise indeed, coming from someone who posted this little gem ...

I give credit where its due. Button is now doing a good job with the equipment he has available to him and is putting Barrichello to shame. This doesnt absolve him of his poor 2008 season or my opinion that he isnt in the same league as Hamilton or Alonso.

Also, BrawnGP did an unprecedented job when they released their car late and within a few months moved from the back of the grid, right to the front. Their car was the fastest in F1, on the first day they tested, which again, was unprecedented. I've never seen that sort of thing happen in F1.

 

[sunama]

@arknor

Button's days at BAR and racing up with Alonso and Schumi clearly counted for nothing...

When Button was with Alonso, Alonso was still learning his trade. Alonso at BAR is not the same Alonso who won 2 titles and the driver we know today. Alonso has pulled away from Button.

Also, which Schumi are you talking about? Ralf?

 

[Christo]

I give credit where its due. Button is now doing a good job with the equipment he has available to him and is putting Barrichello to shame. This doesnt absolve him of his poor 2008 season or my opinion that he isnt in the same league as Hamilton or Alonso.

A poor 2008 season - attributed to a terrible car and a team that admitted defeat at the beginning of the season. Not entirely sure how he needs absolving..

 

[Mr Jack]

And how many years had Ralf been around...hmmm yeah a really great comparison there then

Yeah, he'd been around a while but, hey, Lewis equalled Alonso in his very first season, the real Schumacher equalled Nelson Piquet in his first season and beat Brundle in his second. Alonso beat Trulli in his second season.

Without even considering the fact that the Williams was probably more suited to Ralf due to him already being in the team

Quite possibly, but if Button was truly top tier it really wouldn't have mattered. Look at what the great drivers have achieved. If you've got the talent it will tell.

1st off - no way at all where they the roughly equal car, its like saying LH is in an equal car now than he was last year just because its a McLaren Mercedes. Complete tosh

Look at what Trulli was doing with the car in the two seasons. It was an about equal car.

BAR was never a decent team , for the most part it was always concerntrated around JV, and they got caught out by JB absolutely trouncing him into retirement (in F1 terms anyway)

But, of course, as you've argued for 3 seasons now, not being "in with the team" means you're never going to go anywhere.

Hamilton was last season, maybe last two - Alonso was for his two championship wins , and you arent even giving Button credit for the tricky conditions he has had to win in (all drivers said the light in Aus was bad, the changable weather (on wrong tyres a lot of the time) in one if not two races

Of course it helps that he has a decent car for once - and a boss thats actually working WITH him, he deserves a hell of a lot more credit than you are giving him thats for sure

Button deserves credit, yes, Rubens is showing quite nicely why you need both driver and car but he's not showing himself to be a great of F1.

 

[dannyjo22]

BAR was never a decent team , for the most part it was always concerntrated around JV, and they got caught out by JB absolutely trouncing him into retirement (in F1 terms anyway)

Two words, Dave Richards. He did everything in his power to remove Villeneuve and succeeded. He then turned on Button and Richards was removed.

The FIA then found out about the BAR fuel sump.

 

[sunama]

A poor 2008 season - attributed to a terrible car and a team that admitted defeat at the beginning of the season. Not entirely sure how he needs absolving..

A poor 2008 season where his team-mate Barrichello (who had previously been hopelessly outclassed by M.Schumacher) had beaten him.

Sorry dude, obviously you like Button a lot, but drivers like Senna, Hamilton, Alonso and M.Schumacher, never get out scored by their team-mates*.

*I remember Button outscoring Alonso, when Alonso was starting in F1, but since then, Alonso has slotted in with the other top F1 drivers.

Button is NOT of the same calibre as Alonso or Hamilton.

 

[dannyjo22]

I give credit where its due. Button is now doing a good job with the equipment he has available to him and is putting Barrichello to shame. This doesnt absolve him of his poor 2008 season or my opinion that he isnt in the same league as Hamilton or Alonso.

Also, BrawnGP did an unprecedented job when they released their car late and within a few months moved from the back of the grid, right to the front. Their car was the fastest in F1, on the first day they tested, which again, was unprecedented. I've never seen that sort of thing happen in F1.

Its hard to say whether he's in the same league as hamilton. Hamilton has not driven a car as consistently bad as the honda and BAR was. Hamilton also has a team mate thats not capable of showing us what the relative performance of the Mclaren really is. Rather than rock the boat they will keep the guy there making hamilton look better than he is. Undoubtably hes good but he's making hamilton look better which suits team hamilton.

You haven't seen a car turn up and be fastest on day 1 testing before? I have. The williams cars in the early to late 90's often were the fastest cars straight out of the box. Granted not usually with a new engine.

 

[dannyjo22]

A poor 2008 season where his team-mate Barrichello (who had previously been hopelessly outclassed by M.Schumacher) had beaten him.

Sorry dude, obviously you like Button a lot, but drivers like Senna, Hamilton, Alonso and M.Schumacher, never get out scored by their team-mates*.

*I remember Button outscoring Alonso, when Alonso was starting in F1, but since then, Alonso has slotted in with the other top F1 drivers.

Button is NOT of the same calibre as Alonso or Hamilton.

Atleast 3 of those drivers have team orders to stop it happening. What you saw happening to Rubens at spain happened to him a lot at ferrari. He got stiffed. When you know your a no2 it must sap your motivation.

You always argue that alonso would have suffered due to being unsettled at mclaren, surely you can see how that works the other way for their team mates. As soon as trulli beat alonso at monaco, flav went for him.

Jenson is beating Rubens as MS did. MS then had rubens stick around for years purely for that reason.

Hamilton, Alonso and MS had pick their team mates like a boxer picking easy fights. That rules out greatness for me. Senna would have a whinge but he would never have hidden from the challenge.

Schumacher was a coward that spent his career hiding from a fight while driving the best car ever built with a trodden down team mate.

 

[sunama]

Hamilton also has a team mate thats not capable of showing us what the relative performance of the Mclaren really is.

I remember last year, I was the only person on this forum who was suggesting that Heikki was a very poor driver. Some people even thought that he would be able to compete, toe-to-toe, with Hamilton. I'm glad people are finally agreeing with me.

You haven't seen a car turn up and be fastest on day 1 testing before? I have. The williams cars in the early to late 90's often were the fastest cars straight out of the box. Granted not usually with a new engine.

Incorrect.

In 1991, Williams began developing their 1992 car, in the races. There were reliability problems, as they were testing the car in the races, however, in 1992, when Williams had the best car, by far, it was only a little faster than their 1991 car, which finished 2nd in the Contructors race, in the previous year.

In 1993, Williams who had dominated 1992, once again had the best car. It was another evolutionary step and they did not release their car, late. They were one of the first teams to unveil their car.

At no stage did Williams come from the back of the grid and move right to the front, especially when they released their car very late, after all the other major teams had released and began testing their cars. BrawnGP achieved this.

I contend that what BrawnGP has achieved something unprecedented in the last few decades.

 

[Dup]

Oh not this again. It's getting pretty boring. You can argue Schumi was no1 in the team and Barrichello was no2 regardless of skill and ability. You could argue Jenson wrote off last year and wasn't bothered where he was placed.

What is aparent that he has worked hard over winter, he has got talent and he is currently winning the WDC in a car that he is loving.

His previous seasons have been blighted with poor reliability, team disqualifications and the usual Frank Williams taking advantage of British drivers to make it harder for them to stay competative in the sport. He had some cracking drives in the BAR like whe nhe drive mostly one handed due to a faulty visor and where he was going toe-to-toe with Alonso on a few occasions and Alonso had a much better package under him which led to the title the following two seasons.

Jenson has always showed some class and some promise, hence why fans like me have always stood up for him. You only need to look at the talented drivers at Ferrari and Mclaren to see it takes a decent car as well as a decent driver to win races. Jenson has a decent car that works for him and he's taking full advantage. At the begining of the season you would said it was easily the fastest car and that's why he's winning but the last 2/3 races have been a battle for him and he's shown some skill. He's conservative and whe nhe needs to punch it, he can deliver the goods.

We've got the rest of the season to go yet, but I'm sick of people writing off drivers all too soon. Just becasue they haven't shown some racing prowess over their career doesn't mean they haven't worked hard and improved their game to make the most of it.

 

[Christo]

A poor 2008 season where his team-mate Barrichello (who had previously been hopelessly outclassed by M.Schumacher) had beaten him.

Sorry dude, obviously you like Button a lot, but drivers like Senna, Hamilton, Alonso and M.Schumacher, never get out scored by their team-mates*.

*I remember Button outscoring Alonso, when Alonso was starting in F1, but since then, Alonso has slotted in with the other top F1 drivers.

Button is NOT of the same calibre as Alonso or Hamilton.

Thats the 2nd post I have made defending Button, not sure how you can jump to that conclusion. Whereas I can very validly say, sorry dude its clear you have a bias against button from all your posts slating him - making your opinion rather unbalanced.
Of course Button isnt up there with Senna, Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher etc. a) He hasnt ever had the car or opportunity to win a championship, b) I can very much understand after being in terrible cars since inception in F1 him feeling disheartened, after all the drivers you listed have not been in bad cars for such lengths in their careers. c) It was 1 season - pretty harsh of you d) Personally I wouldnt put him up there with those drivers either, I havent ever said that! I think he is a very good driver yet to prove himself - lets see how he does over the next few years (and not continually write him off like you are with such bias.)

 

[sunama]

Schumacher was a coward that spent his career hiding from a fight while driving the best car ever built with a trodden down team mate.

You are in the vast minority with your thinking. Many, including myself, believe Michael Schumacher to be the greatest and most complete F1 driver, ever.

 

[JRS]

Hamilton, Alonso and MS had pick their team mates like a boxer picking easy fights. That rules out greatness for me. Senna would have a whinge but he would never have hidden from the challenge.

Bad example danny. Senna baulked at having Derek Warwick as a team-mate for '86, so Lotus signed Johnny Dumfries instead. Senna did later admit he was wrong to do that though.

Him wanting to be top dog above all else at Lotus was also responsible for Elio De Angelis leaving at the end of '85, he could see that Lotus were just going to focus on Senna.

 

[Mr Jack]

Hamilton, Alonso and MS had pick their team mates like a boxer picking easy fights. That rules out greatness for me. Senna would have a whinge but he would never have hidden from the challenge.

When Heikki came to McLaren, it was on the back of an impressive rookie season at Renault where he outshone his experienced teammate (the same teammate, btw, who had outclassed Massa in 2004). I'll agree that last season Heikki was all the use of a sack of potatoes, but I don't agree he was picked to be a ragdoll in the second car.

 

[Mr Jack]

You are in the vast minority with your thinking. Many, including myself, believe Michael Schumacher to be the greatest and most complete F1 driver, ever.

Yeah. I despise him, but he was a fantastic talent.

 

[dannyjo22]

You are in the vast minority with your thinking. Many, including myself, believe Michael Schumacher to be the greatest and most complete F1 driver, ever.

I believe him to be the most complete driver in F1 as well, the most complete ****. I will never know how good he actually was because he always had 3rd string team mates.

Bad example danny. Senna baulked at having Derek Warwick as a team-mate for '86, so Lotus signed Johnny Dumfries instead. Senna did later admit he was wrong to do that though.

Him wanting to be top dog above all else at Lotus was also responsible for Elio De Angelis leaving at the end of '85, he could see that Lotus were just going to focus on Senna.

Then make it all four of them, the one thing I always admired from senna is when he had the championship winning car he atleast took on prost as a team mate. MS never took anyone that wasn't a no2 and clearly not in the same league.

I think you have to look at what it does to a drivers mind to be signed as a clear no2. To have a complete lack of support in strategy and in the garage in comparison to your team mate.

A mansell or a villeneuve would have raced whoever they put in the other car. They are the drivers I admire rather than those that cherry pick a driver who will sign a no2 contract to get out of a stewart or a jordan.

 

[[TW]Taggart]

That's not the record of one of F1's greats; it's the record of a decent driver a little off the top tier. This year he's been given the best car on the track and made the most of it - credit to him - but he's not the best driver on the grid by any measure.

Id say Buttons better than the ChocIceman, and he's an WDC