Probably why I won't ride a crotch rocket

Draeger · 13 Jun 2009 at 18:32

helpimcrap said:
my point was speed doesn't kill - irresponsible speed does. point proven.

Totally agree with this.

It doesn't matter how you "dress it up" folks, if the guy had not been riding like a loon in reasonably heavy traffic he would most probably still be alive today. As I said previously, when out on my bike I speed but I have the ability to know when it's safe to do so. It's not that difficult but it takes a certain degree of self restraint.

Another point worth picking up on - and I don't know if it has been mentioned within the thread yet or not, is that the guy who binned it was fully aware his mate behind was filming him. This quite probably made him take chances that he might well not normally take and ride above his normal and safe ability of skill level "just" so he could look back at the vid footage at a later date and make sure the camera was filming something worthwhile.

xiphrex · 13 Jun 2009 at 19:38

What I dont understand is why did the car decide to overtake right then when clearly there was an oncoming white van which was very close anyway?

Looks like reckless motorbike + reckless car both trying to overtake and just so happened to do it at the same time. If the motorbike was doing 60 I doubt it would have made a difference.

mikeh501 · 13 Jun 2009 at 20:37

Bike shouldnt have been going so fast. Definately contributory. The overtake wasnt a great one, and he gave himself nowhere to go if things went wrong... and they did. Its not an overtake I would have attempted.

However, the car SHOULD HAVE SEEN THE BIKE; and not gone for the overtake either. If your attentive to your mirrors there shouldnt be any reason a bright bike with headlamps on should be missed.

Totality · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:02

Freefaller said:
You're just not going to accept that it's 50/50 are you?

I'm with you on this one FF. AcidHell is obviously totally anti-bike and for some reason can't see the car was doing a dangerous overtake too so there's no point arguing with him! I'm a biker, but have no problem with saying that both were to blame in this scenario and the biker was ALSO in the wrong too. I personally wouldnt be doing that speed past traffic. I normally keep my speed 10-20 mph faster than other cars when filtering to give me a chance if someone pulls out which has happened numerous times on the motorway.

I would never have expected the car in this scenario to pull out though as they were overtaking into oncoming traffic! He was obviously a lunatic, but as the bike was going so fast he couldnt stop in time and had to swerve to avoid him and crash.

It's a simple fact of a) If the bike wasn't going so fast the car driver could have been left to scrape past oncoming traffic and the bike could have slowed down - BAD CAR DRIVER. b) If the car hadnt tried to overtake in a dangerous spot the bike would have had no issues but he would still be a BAD BIKER. Not sure what AcidHell is arguing about really but there we go!

marin · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:08

Persil said:
Wrong the car had plenty of time to see him . he didnt look . Bright green bike with both headlights on would have been easily visable as he was riding the white line . Im not dropping 100% of the blame on the car driver but his actions were a contribution .

Persil

Not a chance, there is less than 2 seconds for the car driver to have seen him, not a great overtake by the car driver, I would not have chanced it, but he had already started this before the bike had finished overtaking the car.

Just another reason why I would not ride a bike, but seeing your mate in hospital when you are both 19 with the lower parts of both his legs missing, is the main reason I lost my appetite for riding a bike.

A guy I work with lost his best mate a few weeks ago on the Helmsley TT in the North York Moors a few weeks ago, lost control on a bend, bounced off a dry stone wall and went under a 4x4 – not nice.

thepharcyde · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:12

Sorry maybe I should know this, but don't those cross hatch markings mean no overtaking?!?

Nasty way to go mind

RIP

The Mad Rapper · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:14

Dogbreath said:
Not at all, 100mph and more can be very safe depending on the conditions. How do you think Traffic police manage without killing themselves every time they (legally) exceed 100mph?

Sorry to be a pedant, but no-one can legally exceed the speed limit. The Police are guilty of an offence every time they exceed the speed limit, they just aren't prosecuted because they have Crown Exemption.

Draeger · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:18

marin said:
A guy I work with lost his best mate a few weeks ago on the Helmsley TT in the North York Moors a few weeks ago, lost control on a bend, bounced off a dry stone wall and went under a 4x4 – not nice.

I can 100% relate to that, see my post #221 in this thread on page 8.

Kinda sobers you up to the realism of what the consequences can be of fast bikes on the road when you are supposed to be someone who's full time job involves saving life and you have to crawl under a 4x4 to find your m8 dead and there's not a damn thing you can do for him.

Nearly three years on from the event and it still doesn't sit right in my mind with me to this day.

helpimcrap · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:22

for all those anti-speed people, why don't you vote to have everything restricted ala japan? :confused:

no point having cars/bikes capable or 100mph+ if we're not trusted to do it afely.

cyclops12 · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:24

mejinks said:
I'm having a hard time with 50/50 sorry Will. That car driver had 1, maybe 2 seconds to react to a bike going well above the speed limit.

i would say 50/50 also
bike going stupid speed = yes , car making illegal overtake into oncoming traffic = yes

like you say car driver had no time to react but the biker also didnt expect the car to pull out into oncoming traffic and also had no time to react

who's ever fault it was very sad

helpimcrap · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:26

unfortunately i remember this when i went racing: falling off is an occupational hazard of a bike.

it happens, end of. unfortunately sometimes people die but its sadly one of them things.

Mr Joshua · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:26

Totality said:
AcidHell is obviously totally anti-bike

I always thought AcidHell rides or has ridden motorbikes.

Matblack · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:31

Ooooo I'm coming over all controversial.

Its the bikers fault because quite frankly he was doing stupid speeds in traffic.

Keep your hooning away from other traffic where your death is your own business and you only have yourself to look out for.

Why should a car driver accelerating to the limit have to expect a bike coming towards him at the equivalent of 50mph vs standing still? It's like someone walking out of their front door and getting mown down but a car doing 50 on the pavement, you shouldn't have to expect that to happen and if it does it isn't their fault for not looking for a car on the pavement its the cars fault for being there.

The older I get the less I drive at excessive speed. I won't say I don't break the speed limit but if I did and it was a major factor in a car crash I doubt I'd be trying to blame someone else especially if that person was obeying the law.

My money says if you could commune with the dead the bloke would hold his hands up and say he was riding without due care and attention to the road condition and he'd probably tell you that excessive speed was the major contributory factor in the accident.

I'm not anti bike by the way, I'm just anti maniac, expecially if they are on the same roads as me.

MB

Draeger · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:38

Matblack said:
Its the bikers fault because quite frankly he was doing stupid speeds in traffic.

Agreed, I concur. However "muppet boy cager" in the car that moved out and went for the overtake that clipped the biker also had a part to play in the entire episode. He was, in my mind, also partially to blame for the outcome of the incident.

Don't get me wrong, as I have already said, the biker was using speed in a situation that didn't allow for any degree of safety or escape route if things went bad. But the car driver making that overtake into oncoming traffic was completely in the wrong also. :cool:

Matblack · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:43

Draeger said:
Agreed, I concur. However "muppet boy cager" in the car that moved out and went for the overtake that clipped the biker also had a part to play in the entire episode. He was, in my mind, also partially to blame for the outcome of the incident.

Don't get me wrong, as I have already said, the biker was using speed in a situation that didn't allow for any degree of safety or escape route if things went bad. But the car driver making that overtake into oncoming traffic was completely in the wrong also.

I wouldn't argue, although it was a legal move it certainly isn't sensible given the traffic condition, when you make a move like that you expect to be the biggest idiot on the road, not have one accelerating into you as well. A stupid move on the part of the car, a reckless one on the part of the biker.

What's this cage stuff by the way, is it a bikers insult to car drivers, seems uncalled for, I tend to call bikers, bikers?

MB

Glaucus · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:43

Mr Joshua said:
I always thought AcidHell rides or has ridden motorbikes.

I have indeed and plan to ride again.
I'm not against bikes, just call it how I see it.

andyp · 13 Jun 2009 at 21:54

I feel compelled to post here.

I'm the complete opposite of a bike rider, I drive something much much larger, heavier and slower and carries many more people. I know this will make 99% of people in here instantly hate me, but as a bus driver I have massive respect for bikers. I will always give them as much room as I physically and safely can, and appreciate the way they make their presence known one way or the other, especially when they're around such a large vehicle as the ones I drive. I like the fact I can count on them to be aware.

I had a bike hit me in my car a few months back, he overtook me when I was turning right off a NSL road. Luckily he got away with nothing more than cuts and bruises but he immediately held his hands up, apologised profusely and his 'i was riding like a tit' attitude was something I doubt I would ever see from your average car driver.

The biking lot are easy targets, as are us bus drivers. They ride massively powerful, fast machines that can be downright scary if they creep up on you and I drive a huge hulking awkward slow thing that gets in everyone's way. So either way it's so convenient to blame whoever is out of the ordinary on the roads. I spend 40-50 hours on the road week in, week out and see examples of driving like the Peugeot in the OP's vid virtually everyday - poor judgement, lack of awareness and just your average every-day car driver being your average every-day car driver.

As I found out when the biker hit me, it's all about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The guy who died wasn't riding particularly responsibly, whoever was driving the Peugeot didn't display the best standard of driving. Unfortunately those two events happened at the same time in the damn wrong place.

Throw the blame any which way you want but when it comes down to it no matter how many hours we spend behind the wheel you've just got to hope you're not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Draeger · 13 Jun 2009 at 22:03

Matblack said:
A stupid move on the part of the car, a reckless one on the part of the biker.

Again, totally agree.

Matblack said:
What's this cage stuff by the way, is it a bikers insult to car drivers, seems uncalled for, I tend to call bikers, bikers?

Apologies, "cagers" are what a lot of bikers on bike related forums refer to as car drivers. Didn't mean to offend or insult anyone, its not really a derogatory term, its not intended to be so, but maybe it is not too common so that's why a lot of car drivers have not heard of it?.

The term "cagers" actually originates from the USA, I prefer to use a much more subtle term for cars - "Mobile Chicanes".

RoysonBobson · 14 Jun 2009 at 00:23

Draeger said:
"Mobile Chicanes".

I like that

I'll be using that one from now on!

Also - topic: a lot has been said and opinions voiced on both sides. I quite like this summation:

andyp said:
...it's all about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The guy who died wasn't riding particularly responsibly, whoever was driving the Peugeot didn't display the best standard of driving. Unfortunately those two events happened at the same time in the damn wrong place.

Throw the blame any which way you want but when it comes down to it no matter how many hours we spend behind the wheel you've just got to hope you're not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I feel it sums it up quite nicely.

Freefaller · 14 Jun 2009 at 10:14

mejinks said:
I'm having a hard time with 50/50 sorry Will. That car driver had 1, maybe 2 seconds to react to a bike going well above the speed limit.

You don't have to apologise - but people who don't ride bikes will never understand.

And the law doesn't agree with you mr AH2 as we don't know the outcome of the dozy driver that pulled out on the biker. At least he has to live with the fact he contributed to the death of someone.