Krav Maga

Paul11 · 19 Jul 2009 at 12:54

Dolph said:
I did Aikido for just over 10 years, and have dabbled with a few others, including muay thai, TKD and JKD.

I looked seriously at taking up Krav, but unless you learn it properly (including the instinctual hard reactions) it is not that much more effective than anything else. Part of what makes Krav so effective as a combat art is the nature of the responses, and if you aren't learning those properly, you're not really learning Krav Maga, you're learning based on it, but nowhere near as effective.

would you say that the aikido you learnt was 100% original and classic aikido as the founder system that was developed or a slight variation and adaptation of it ?

although krav is most effective in its true form it does not mean that it does not have a place for civilian use and self defence

Dolph · 19 Jul 2009 at 13:07

Paul11 said:
would you say that the aikido you learnt was 100% original and classic aikido as the founder system that was developed or a slight variation and adaptation of it ?

That's a very difficult question to answer, because the founder changed or refined the system throughout his life. The Aikido taught by Ōsensei (Morihei Ueshiba) in the 1930s and that taught by him in the 1960s are quite different, although the core ideas stay the same, the art became more pacified as time went on and Ōsensei moved further towards pacifism.

although krav is most effective in its true form it does not mean that it does not have a place for civilian use and self defence

I'm not saying that it doesn't, just that most of the comments on the effectiveness of Krav rely on full teaching, and without that, it becomes something different. That's not to say it is not still an effective form of self defence, but the concerns about the style remain. You run the risk of either overreacting or of crippling the techniques through lack of focus.

meghatronic · 19 Jul 2009 at 13:08

Paul11 said:
would you say that the aikido you learnt was 100% original and classic aikido as the founder system that was developed or a slight variation and adaptation of it ?

Particularly bad example, as Aikido 'evolved' (changed) rapidly into distinct styles. Krav maga can't have the same evolution as it detracts from the founder's goals.

Dolph, do you still train?

Paul11 · 19 Jul 2009 at 13:11

meghatronic said:
Particularly bad example, as Aikido 'evolved' (changed) rapidly into distinct styles. Krav maga can't have the same evolution as it detracts from the founder's goals.

k, maybe was a bad example but you get where i was going.

most styles have evolved from thier original classic form in to more modern interprotations in one way or another

Aliboy · 19 Jul 2009 at 13:17

Paul11 said:
the use of force in most Kravmaga situations would be to defend yourself and then run away.

This is exactly what the Krav Maga school in Edinburgh is all about. A half decent instructor would never continue to instruct you on the use of excessive force once an opponent or threat has been disabled. This avoids you having to explain your actions in a court of law one day.The classes that I attended always (and I mean always) ended up with you looking for an escape route as soon as possible. What's the point of staying to continue a fight when you've already put someone on the floor? There are moves in Krav Maga that can disable an opponent without too much effort being applied (suprisingly little effort actually) and will have your threat begging to be let go. It is probably one of the most technical yet simplist forms of self defence there is and when applied properly, can leave you walking away from very volotile situations leaving your attackers with nothing more than a couple of bruises and a few shattered egos

Al

Dolph · 19 Jul 2009 at 13:21

Paul11 said:
k, maybe was a bad example but you get where i was going.

most styles have evolved from thier original classic form in to more modern interprotations in one way or another

I do see where you are coming from, but the key issue is that Krav Maga has a fearsome (and deserved) reputation as a brutal combat art, and many people praise it as such. The new modern self-defence variants of Krav are missing some of the things that make Krav such an effective form. In many respects, they aren't the same art any more, and it seems that civilian forms of Krav are trading on the reputation of the original form despite diverging quite significantly.

Meghatronic - Occasionally, but very much focusing on the softer aspects.

Dolph · 19 Jul 2009 at 13:23

Tornado898cc said:
This is exactly what the Krav Maga school in Edinburgh is all about. A half decent instructor would never continue to instruct you on the use of excessive force once an opponent or threat has been disabled. This avoids you having to explain your actions in a court of law one day.The classes that I attended always (and I mean always) ended up with you looking for an escape route as soon as possible. What's the point of staying to continue a fight when you've already put someone on the floor? There are moves in Krav Maga that can disable an opponent without too much effort being applied (suprisingly little effort actually) and will have your threat begging to be let go. It is probably one of the most technical yet simplist forms of self defence there is and when applied properly, can leave you walking away from very volotile situations leaving your attackers with nothing more than a couple of bruises and a few shattered egos

Al

There are degrees of disabling an opponant, though, just as there are degrees of counter-attack.

Even if you stop when the opponant is disabled, whether or not you can claim reasonable force will depend on how you disabled that opponant.

philjohn · 19 Jul 2009 at 13:31

Dolph said:
There are degrees of disabling an opponant, though, just as there are degrees of counter-attack.

Even if you stop when the opponant is disabled, whether or not you can claim reasonable force will depend on how you disabled that opponant.

Surely it will also rely on how the opponent was attempting to attack you, if unarmed then you'd be treading on thin ice, if armed with a gun or a kinife what is classed as "reasonable" goes up quite a bit.

Dolph · 19 Jul 2009 at 13:35

philjohn said:
Surely it will also rely on how the opponent was attempting to attack you, if unarmed then you'd be treading on thin ice, if armed with a gun or a kinife what is classed as "reasonable" goes up quite a bit.

It does, but what would be classed as 'reasonable' by a jury also tends to go down with training. It is a complex area as to what is and isn't likely to be defined as reasonable in a given situation.

daveydave · 19 Jul 2009 at 14:00

Trying to find somewhere near guildford that does Krav..struggling

meghatronic · 19 Jul 2009 at 14:06

david.n.c said:
Trying to find somewhere near guildford that does Krav..struggling

http://www.kravmaga-clubs.com/countries/kravmaga-clubs-europe-uk-southeast.html

ChrisJSY · 19 Jul 2009 at 14:41

G-MAN2004 said:
This guy is insane:

I'm not really one for scripted events and where other people go with your throw.

I'm sure he could kick my butt 100 timers over with his little finger but still!

Dave85 · 19 Jul 2009 at 14:43

Looks awesome fun, and there is a center here in fife that teaches it. But im a lardo so probably shouldnt go lol.

meghatronic · 19 Jul 2009 at 15:07

DAvE18 said:
Looks awesome fun, and there is a center here in fife that teaches it. But im a lardo so probably shouldnt go lol.

I've done martial arts for years and have been various sizes, including my current lardo state! Get going you!

Sash · 19 Jul 2009 at 17:52

meghatronic said:
And re: thread sidetrack, this is GD....... (to the this is Sparta).

I've asked multiple times for this to be put into Sports since this is where it should be, but I was being a tard and put it into motors, which made it get moved here.

@topic: As has been said the "style" of KM that Edinburgh teaches is "Counter and run" which is what I am most interested in. I am not looking to be able to kill a man with my thumb for the hell of it lol

Vidar · 19 Jul 2009 at 18:43

Personally ive not actually studied Krav Maga but that has been down to the fact that until recentley there was nowhere teaching it in my area...

Id studied ju-jitsu for 7 years and found it lacking in real world application, ankle throws and rice-bails anyone? Okay so I never made it to black belt but as a form of self defence and a sport it just wasnt for me!

Ive tried several others over the years, not sticking at them long for much the same reason, Mui tai, kickboxing, Akido even the slightly more obscure Kuk Sool Won none of which suited my needs I felt... I was working as a night club doorman at the time.

Id done a lot of research on the net and came across Krav Maga, initially created by the israeli's during WW2 as a form of self defence against the Nazi's and other antagonists. Its taken on several different forms I believe including the commando variant taught to Israeli special forces, its this more potent variant that I am interested in as am hoping to pursue a career in close protection...

fluffmct · 19 Jul 2009 at 19:19

NW_SKINHEAD said:
Id done a lot of research on the net and came across Krav Maga, initially created by the israeli's during WW2 as a form of self defence against the Nazi's and other antagonists. Its taken on several different forms I believe including the commando variant taught to Israeli special forces, its this more potent variant that I am interested in as am hoping to pursue a career in close protection...

I'd do a bit more research first mate. The guy who created that strain has some very questionable qualifications and experience

Aliboy · 19 Jul 2009 at 21:01

Dolph said:
There are degrees of disabling an opponant, though, just as there are degrees of counter-attack.

Even if you stop when the opponant is disabled, whether or not you can claim reasonable force will depend on how you disabled that opponent.

I hear what you're saying Dolph and I agree with you. It's up to the instructor and your own level of self restraint to use the skills you learn accordingly.
Kneeing someone in the thigh can leave a person unable to get up if done correctly, punching someone in the bicep will leave them unable to use that arm to try and counter attack you. Techniques like this are much better than learning to elbow someone in the face where more serious damage can be done (this is also taught). Krav Maga in it's rawest form is an extremely violent and deadly fighting skill. It has been adopted and 'softened up' to make it more applicable to everyday scenarios. Taught correctly, it is extremely effective.

Al

DrDee · 19 Jul 2009 at 21:41

fluffmct said:
I'd do a bit more research first mate. The guy who created that strain has some very questionable qualifications and experience

Indeed, Commando Krav Maga is very questionable iirc.

http://www.realitybasedtraining.co.uk/ - this is where I went when I was dabbling in self defence classes and it was easily the best. (endorced by Bas Ruten

)

Being scared of being prosecuted is thinking a tad to far ahead of oneself when it comes to self defence (imo) If someone comes at me with a knife or with deadly force and I cant run, I am not going to be thinking "hmm, how can I defuse this situation whilst doing the least harm possible to this guy", im going to return the favour and defend myself useing the most effective method available to me and reduce the risk to myself as much as I can.

http://www.realitybasedtraining.co.uk/training-with-us/lead-coach.html - Very informative, even if you aren't anywhere near the south west

ikillbears · 19 Jul 2009 at 22:05

That bloke is a bloody weapon in him self. Bit where the bloke in the red t shirt comes at him with a knife. Don't even see what happens and just absolutely nails him