Republicans: NHS is "Owellian and Evil"

Daniel Hannan's an idiot. He's somehow turned this whole debate into an NHS vs. America argument with the NHS coming out on top and people like Stephen Hawking coming out and endorsing it. He's basically done Labour a favour and moved the discussion away from the rather obvious flaws and broken aspects of the NHS itself and what the Conservatives will do to fix these errors when they come into power.

Moron.
 
What will the Conservatives do with the NHS though? They've said they'll stick to the New Labour-planned increases in spending afaIk, after at one stage saying they were going to increase healthcare spending to 11% iIrc, but I haven't heard any specifics.. Much like with other policies they're just coasting in the knowledge the country will vote for them as the "not-the-government-in-power-during-this-recession" party. What a shoddy system we have. :(
 
Fair enough, I didn't know about their intentions with spending. It would be nice to see some more actual policies from them and not this childish nonsense being spouted across American television unless I've just completely missed everything they've said in the past.
 
Grrrrr said:
Daniel Hannan has had his 10mins of youtube fame, now he should **** off back to the rock from which he crawled under.

That article has made me really quite angry. The NHS is a fantastic thing.
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It is a pity he did not say all these things a few months ago when he was desperate to become an MEP. I am sure the voters of SE England would have had a much different opinion of him.
 
And now Andy Burnham is calling Daniel Hannan "unpatriotic" for not supporting the NHS. Is it really unpatriotic? Shame they are doing their usual lies and spin to make as much political capital out of this as possible. God I hate our politics some days.
 
The NHS may have it's flaws but i'm damn sure I would rather have it than the poor American system.
For starters, Daniel Hannan is clearly a complete twonk who needs to keep his mouth shut. What he doesn't seem to realise it that his views, which are clearly to get one over on the Labour government, is coming across as the general view on the NHS rather than his own. The Americans don't care what his political leanings are which is what he is using this whole situation for.
Plus it's all very well for the Tories to have a go at the NHS (even though Cameron says he's 100% behind it) - they've all come from well to do backgrounds who will have almost certainly have had private health cover and haven't needed to use the NHS.
I noticed on the American adverts about it i've seen they show the government putting a value on a persons life by calculating how much it will cost to keep them alive, elderly persons in this case. If we are always killing off old people then why is there a bigger population of pensioners then young people over here? And if charging people for their healthcare like in the USA isn't putting a value on someone's life then I don't know what is! :confused:
The Americans that are against the NHS are just typical of a country which is probably the most insular on the planet. In a lot of areas they haven't really got a clue about what goes on outside their own town, let alone the health system of another country. Yet they're pretty quick to spout off about it :mad:. If our health system is so bad then why do so many others come from round the world to use it (apart from it being free). I'm sure there's plenty of yanks who've timed a visit to this country to take advantage of the NHS.
And as someone said earlier, what is this yank obsession with teeth?!? My teeth must be crap then as I haven't got a Hollywood smile (still fairly straight though), even though i've never had any problems whatsoever with them. :rolleyes:
All i'll say is this - whenever my family has needed health care it's always been very good. My uncle was diagnosed (luckily early enough) with prostate cancer this year, which he got seen about and treated for immediately (another thing Daniel Hannan mentioned which he was clearly wrong about saying it takes ages to get seen). He couldn't praise them enough, really friendly professional service, second to none. He's finished his treatment now and is fine. My family have had to use the NHS a good few times over the years for various things (for example my mum had a hip replacement, my dad broke his ankle last year, etc) and everytime the care has been very good, and even pretty quick in most cases.
And we didn't get a bloody great bill thrown at us at the end of it! :)
 
tb2000 said:
Plus it's all very well for the Tories to have a go at the NHS (even though Cameron says he's 100% behind it) - they've all come from well to do backgrounds who will have almost certainly have had private health cover and haven't needed to use the NHS.
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Yeah, it's not like Cameron had a disabled son and spent a huge amount of time in NHS hospitals with NHS staff. Oh hang on...
 
RDM said:
Yeah, it's not like Cameron had a disabled son and spent a huge amount of time in NHS hospitals with NHS staff. Oh hang on...
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Alright then, that's a fair enough point. Plus like anyone else, he is entitled to use it. And I don't mind David Cameron myself, at least he's basically said Hannan is a loon (which is pretty accurate considering the way he's been putting his party and Cameron in a bad light). All i'm saying is that there'll be quite a few members of the Conservatives (and no doubt the other parties as well) who don't need the services of the NHS as they can well afford treatment privately if they so choose. This is no different to the ones who are against it in the USA, they are people who can afford healthcare no problem. That's all very well but it's a different story for the near on 50 million who can't.
 
There is one thing that could be considered orwellian about the NHS style setup, and that's the fact that it encourages governments to make restrictions/policies around saving money for the NHS (eg certain health campaigns and things like that) that the government should not really be getting involved in because they harm no-one other than the person doing them. The NHS by default makes it a society problem when it should not be.
 
NHS not perfect, but better than the American system, getting landed with $50,000 bill for a life saving operation or even if you have insurance you might get a life threatening condition and get dropped because your unprofitable. Stuff like that scares me more.

There system is more expensive on the country as well. NHS could be optimized, but screw the american system. I don't want to die if i end up out of a job.
 
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Not been watching much of the news but Obama wnats to offer more free health care yet the Americans are going mental over it and saying look at the UK and the NHS and the fact they think its crap.
 
My cousin lives in Florida now and has told me of her experiences first hand of the system there. She pays a lot for her health insurance and has had some good treatment but finds that if she gets something like a chest infection (a family trait) her doctor will not prescribe antibiotics until she has had a barrage of tests including scans, Xrays, ECGs etc. and she finds this a complete waste of time and money. When she wasn't working and couldn't afford to pay her insurnace, she didn't get any treatment at all as she wasn't poor enough, as only the really impoverished get help and then only in some places and at a very low level.
 
RDM said:
And now Andy Burnham is calling Daniel Hannan "unpatriotic" for not supporting the NHS. Is it really unpatriotic? Shame they are doing their usual lies and spin to make as much political capital out of this as possible. God I hate our politics some days.
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He's not unpatriotic, he's just an idiot.

I'd love to know what he knows about the American system seeing as he's such an expert all of a sudden and what comparing the NHS to U.S. healthcare has to do with his job description.
 
Chimerical said:
He's not unpatriotic, he's just an idiot.

I'd love to know what he knows about the American system seeing as he's such an expert all of a sudden and what comparing the NHS to U.S. healthcare has to do with his job description.
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The fact that the american system is bad does not mean that the NHS is the only or best alternative.

If I wanted to create a universal healthcare system, would I use the NHS model? No I wouldn't. The NHS model is flawed, primarily because it puts too much on the state and creates an effective monopoly on healthcare that benefits neither patients or taxpayers.
 
Although I have private health insurance through my work I have had the use of the NHS for over 30 years for a long term illness (nephrotic syndrome for anyone interested) and have nothing but praise for all concerned. I WOULD be dead except for the many drugs and treatment I have had over the years which must have cost many thousands of pounds., Yes appoinments take a few weeks to come through but I have never needed to worry about cost or any treatment being withheld and this has included some new drugs that were available.

I agree private health cover may give quicker tretment times and in some cases access to newer techniques but I wouldn't want this to be the only way to get to see doctors or be treated.
 
Dolph said:
The fact that the american system is bad does not mean that the NHS is the only or best alternative.

If I wanted to create a universal healthcare system, would I use the NHS model? No I wouldn't. The NHS model is flawed, primarily because it puts too much on the state and creates an effective monopoly on healthcare that benefits neither patients or taxpayers.
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I never said that the NHS model was ideal, I've said its flawed and has problems a couple of times in this thread but unfortunately that's not what this debate is centered on because this discussion is about comparing the NHS to the American system...which is pointless.

I also wasn't aware that it was the place of an MEP to be advising Americans on what health care they should or should not have. They've got enough of that with Fox News and the Republicans scaremongering and its a big enough internal debate for them to deal with already. Its none of our business and I don't know why he was talking to them about it.
 
Dolph said:
There is one thing that could be considered orwellian about the NHS style setup, and that's the fact that it encourages governments to make restrictions/policies around saving money for the NHS
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Any efficiently run healthcare provider will limit healthcare based upon the budget they have. It happens to be the case that the NHS has a smaller budget than many economies comparable in size to the UK. Had we a larger budget more resources would be available; waiting times would be shorter, treatment times would be shorter, and less cost-effective drugs and treatment would be available, just as it would be in an insurance scheme. The decisions in what treatment is available, as governed by NICE, is fairly sensible in its aproach. It is evidence-based, judging the worthiness of a treatment upon the clinical evidence of the benefits compared to the costs, as should be the case in any sensible healthcare provider with any budget. The controversies arise at the fringe where the cost to benefit is less clear for certain treatments.

Is it Orwellian to inform the public so that they might know the consequences of ther lifestyle upon their health and make an informed decision of how they live their life based upon that?

(eg certain health campaigns and things like that)
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Such as?

that the government should not really be getting involved in because they harm no-one other than the person doing them.
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Do you not think the healthcare system has a role in disease prevention? Or is that a personal choice(based presumably upon a lack of information, because for those that have the knowledge to comment and advise would be Orwellian state inference, interfering with libertarian, personal ignorance)? Should the evil state not interfere and tell people that certain things are bad for them and will likely cause them disease and suffering? Who's the state to tell people that smoking kills and causes pain and suffering?! It's their right!

The NHS by default makes it a society problem when it should not be.
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Again, could you give some specific examples and explain why you think this is the case?
 
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An American relative of mine (the wife's cousin) had a rather big argument with a taxi driver over here about the NHS vs. the American system. Apparently, they already have the "insured" quota against a lower-quality "NHS"-style system in the form of what they call "County" Hospitals.

For example, someone with insurance will be treated at the nearest big hospital, while a homeless guy found battered in the street will be taken to "county" for treatment, treated and released - free of charge. The standard of care is slightly lower than the NHS, but the authorities will not simply walk away and leave a homeless person to bleed to death because they don't have insurance - despite what scaremongerers may have you think.

Since said cousin was in an horrendous car accident which has nearly bankrupted his (well off) family for treatment, he's had his fair share in "county". I think it angered him somewhat to hear a person in the UK spout off about how terrible the American system was even though they pay for the majority of it.

From what I gather, you get care. If you have insurance and it's accepted you get primo treatment. If you don't you get treatment - albeit at a sub-NHS level (can you get worse?). All considered, I'd still rather have the NHS. Let's not forget that we too have the choice to take out a private health insurance policy should we wish - the American system isn't the quagmire that most seem to think it is, but all things considered it sure as **** isn't as preferable as what we have here. The social conditioning involved in convincing them otherwise is more worrying, IMO.
 
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