Death of the manual gearbox.

[TW]Fox · 2 Nov 2009 at 20:54

Robbie G said:
So basically, if your car has ESP, it has auto hill hold.

Err no, because all TT's have ESP (Well, not all, but it was part of the safety modifications brought into place after a few nasty accidents immediatly after the cars launch in 1998.

Therefore it is 100% certainty Eidolons TT 3.2, being a 2003, had ESP.

ESP does not therefore guarantee auto hill-hold.

Dandle · 2 Nov 2009 at 21:21

[QUOTE='[TW]ESP does not therefore guarantee auto hill-hold.[/QUOTE]

Your right when I bought my Audi hill hold was an optional extra on all cars manual and DSG and most had ESP as standard.

BigglesPiP · 2 Nov 2009 at 21:32

Has anyone here tried driving one of these robotised manual gearboxes slowly?

They're terrific at going fast, but I've not encountered one which works when moving slowly around town, I could honestly do a better job with my right foot.

Gribs · 2 Nov 2009 at 21:39

[TW]Fox;15225387 said:
Generally but more recent (last 3 years) boxes are as good if not better in the case of VW DSG and BMW DCT.

The econcomy claims for the DSG type box don't have any relation to real world driving though. They only do better in the Euro fuel consuption tests as they're allowed to use any gear they choose where as a manual has to change at certain revs.

[TW]Fox · 2 Nov 2009 at 21:41

Gribs said:
The econcomy claims for the DSG type box don't have any relation to real world driving though. They only do better in the Euro fuel consuption tests as they're allowed to use any gear they choose where as a manual has to change at certain revs.

Sounds like the same story as with BMW's Efficient Dynamics stuff.

Took a 120d on a 270 mile Motorway trip today with cruise set to.. a sensible speed and got 55mpg. Sure, I picked it up with 3 miles on it but its supposed to do that around town not on the Motorway..

Flibster · 2 Nov 2009 at 21:42

BigglesPiP said:
Has anyone here tried driving one of these robotised manual gearboxes slowly?

They're terrific at going fast, but I've not encountered one which works when moving slowly around town, I could honestly do a better job with my right foot.

The one's I've used and seen tend to destroy clutches on a regular basis.
But they are useless in stop/start and slow moving traffic. It was almost like having a driving n00b in charge of the gears.

Fr0dders · 2 Nov 2009 at 21:42

[TW]Fox;15231970 said:
Sounds like the same story as with BMW's Efficient Dynamics stuff.

Took a 120d on a 270 mile Motorway trip today with cruise set to.. a sensible speed and got 55mpg. Sure, I picked it up with 3 miles on it but its supposed to do that around town not on the Motorway..

heck

even if it only lowered my car tax id be happy with that.

[TW]Fox · 2 Nov 2009 at 21:53

Thats the thing really, ordinarily I'd have been dead chuffed with 55mpg as I wasn't doing 56mph but... its so far adrift of the official figures its all a bit dissapointing

Dandle · 2 Nov 2009 at 21:58

[TW]Fox;15231970 said:
Took a 120d on a 270 mile Motorway trip today with cruise set to.. a sensible speed and got 55mpg. Sure, I picked it up with 3 miles on it but its supposed to do that around town not on the Motorway..

The engines do take a while to loosen up. Mine was noticeably improving all the time up to about 16k miles.

[TW]Fox · 2 Nov 2009 at 22:02

Dandle said:
The engines do take a while to loosen up. Mine was noticeably improving all the time up to about 16k miles.

True enough although last weeks 118d which I put quite a few miles on (See other thread) had 10k on it. Todays was box fresh though

Jonnycoupe · 2 Nov 2009 at 22:59

[TW]Fox;15231970 said:
Sounds like the same story as with BMW's Efficient Dynamics stuff.

Took a 120d on a 270 mile Motorway trip today with cruise set to.. a sensible speed and got 55mpg. Sure, I picked it up with 3 miles on it but its supposed to do that around town not on the Motorway..

Which part of the NEDC averages anything like motorway speed though?

19mph average and 37mph average IIRC.

55mpg above 70mph is pretty impressive for a car like that though isnt it?

eidolon · 2 Nov 2009 at 23:02

[TW]Fox;15231601 said:
Err no, because all TT's have ESP (Well, not all, but it was part of the safety modifications brought into place after a few nasty accidents immediatly after the cars launch in 1998.

Therefore it is 100% certainty Eidolons TT 3.2, being a 2003, had ESP.

ESP does not therefore guarantee auto hill-hold.

It definitely had the ESP button, I know that for sure. I also know that it would roll back on hills too so the hill hold thing must be something different.

Until I can have a flappy paddle gearbox which does what I tell it to and nothing else I'll stick with a manual gearbox.

cheets64 · 2 Nov 2009 at 23:16

Only driven one automatic and it felt like I was driving a go kart.

ganesh · 3 Nov 2009 at 00:07

eidolon said:
It definitely had the ESP button, I know that for sure. I also know that it would roll back on hills too so the hill hold thing must be something different.

Until I can have a flappy paddle gearbox which does what I tell it to and nothing else I'll stick with a manual gearbox.

So there is no option on a dsg system for it to not intervene at all? If so that does kind of suck.

[TW]Fox · 3 Nov 2009 at 00:21

Jonnycoupe said:
Which part of the NEDC averages anything like motorway speed though?

19mph average and 37mph average IIRC.

55mpg above 70mph is pretty impressive for a car like that though isnt it?

In isolation yes its very impressive but its nowhere near the official figures, its less even than the combined mpg. By contrast with the older cars, mine for example, the same journey would yield in excess of combined mpg and certainly near if not exactly spot on the extra urban mpg.

According to BMW a 120d should do 50mpg around town let alone on a Motorway..

Morba · 3 Nov 2009 at 01:02

did i read right that the new Golf and Scirocco R's auto boxes are quicker to 60 and more economical than the manuals?

Jonnycoupe · 3 Nov 2009 at 02:05

[TW]Fox;15232915 said:
In isolation yes its very impressive but its nowhere near the official figures, its less even than the combined mpg. By contrast with the older cars, mine for example, the same journey would yield in excess of combined mpg and certainly near if not exactly spot on the extra urban mpg.

According to BMW a 120d should do 50mpg around town let alone on a Motorway..

The official figure should not be read as what you will do at 70mph though. Thats my point, its average is 37mph with 70mph attained for all of 4 seconds or something stupid like that.

Is your car based on the NEDC? N being the key bit of New as the ratings changed somewhat as the drive cycle was updated. With the NEDC if there is a shift indicator the operator has to follow that aswell.

Scania · 3 Nov 2009 at 03:06

[TW]Fox;15231970 said:
Sounds like the same story as with BMW's Efficient Dynamics stuff.

Took a 120d on a 270 mile Motorway trip today with cruise set to.. a sensible speed and got 55mpg. Sure, I picked it up with 3 miles on it but its supposed to do that around town not on the Motorway..

Just out of interest have you tried not using the cruise control on the motorway? It sounds daft I know,not to mention it defeats the whole point of cruise control! but I've found with both cars & trucks that i get better MPG by adjusting my throttle position myself rather than leaving the cruise to do it.

Watching the "economy meter" in BMW's is handy, I find I can get my 328 to hover well above 30MPG when cruising on the motorway on a flat stretch yet the cruise seems to have the little needle pointing just under 30MPG if you see what I mean.

In a nutshell, the cruise seems to want to apply throttle when its not really needed.

I know its not an exact science but it seems to work for me....

Regardless, I can understand your disappointment re the 120d.

eidolon · 3 Nov 2009 at 07:55

ganesh said:
So there is no option on a dsg system for it to not intervene at all? If so that does kind of suck.

Not on my TT there wasn't. In full DSG mode it decided if you'd slowed too much for the current gear so it changed down for you, it decided if you were gonna rev too high so changed up for you.

Another thing I just remembered that I didn't like was the feel of not knowing which gear you were in. With a manual box you move a gearstick into a certain place so therefore you know what gear you're in, with DSG you flick a paddle (or sometimes the box does it for you like I said above) so you have to keep an eye on the dash display to remember what gear you're in.

Participant · 3 Nov 2009 at 09:27

[TW]Fox;15231601 said:
ESP does not therefore guarantee auto hill-hold.

I see. So all that can actually be said is that not having ESP, guarantees that your vehicle does not have hill hold. My BS is already on the first page of Google if you search 'dsg esp hill hold', a classic demonstration of why you should be careful of what's written on the internet.

eidolon said:
It definitely had the ESP button, I know that for sure. I also know that it would roll back on hills too so the hill hold thing must be something different.

It's not something different as such. Hill hold can only be actuated through the ESP system. I guess they must have introduced a software upgrade or added an actuator in later ESP versions.

eidolon said:
Another thing I just remembered that I didn't like was the feel of not knowing which gear you were in. With a manual box you move a gearstick into a certain place so therefore you know what gear you're in, with DSG you flick a paddle (or sometimes the box does it for you like I said above) so you have to keep an eye on the dash display to remember what gear you're in.

Why do you need to know what gear you're in? You just need to know you're in the right one, which can be easily detected by the engine noise and the feel of the car when accelerating.

What about rally drivers driving cars with sequential gears? Aside from the fact that they probably know intuitively what gear they're in, the only way they know for sure is by looking at the display. I'm not comparing your average DSG equipped vehicle to your average rally car in terms of either equipment or driving experience, but surely they don't have time to keep checking their display to make sure that the gear they've selected is the most appropriate.

I know from when I use the paddles that you can easily tell whether or not the most appropriate gear is selected. It is however annoying that it reverts to auto mode if inactivity is detected. I'm not sure if putting the gear lever into manual mode also, overcomes this. Will have to check later.

Back on track, I sincerely doubt that manual boxes will be of interest to anybody once production costs come down to the point where they can be included in the cheapest of mass production cars, and where they improve to the point that manual fans perceive that sufficient control can be exercised through them.