Islamic protest march planned for Wootton Basset

Athanor said:
To be fair the aim isn't to pacify Afghanistan, it's to support the Afghan government until they are in a position to govern the country without being over thrown by an extreme faction, the Taliban. The coalitions aim is not to subjugate, conquer or occupy Afghanistan and the plan has always been for the engagement of coalition troops to be a temporary thing.
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I'll give you the different aims point there actually, the current best case is somehow creating a self supporting national government there and leaving. The russians did have a puppet government too of course but they were coming from a different place.

We'll just agree ignoring them is the best way forwards. People turning up to have a fight with them serves no purpose and really just enhances their case for victimisation. It's a dumb protest but unfortunately democracy requires it...
 
bigredshark said:
No doubt but most of those accusation can be levelled at other established religions equally, christianity included.
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Not unless you live centuries in the past.

The only religion that is a serious current threat to the UK is Islam. Christianity might perhaps at some point revert to advocating legal practices banned (by the Christian church) in England 800 years ago, revert to the same degree of control freakery it had back then, revert to the extremely limited sexed roles it permitted back them, spawn a sizable proportion of followers who condone the use of violence to impose theocracy and a smaller amount eager to use it...it might do these things, and if it did then I'd consider it as much of a threat as Islam is. But I'd be very surprised if it happened.
 
Angilion said:
Not unless you live centuries in the past.

The only religion that is a serious current threat to the UK is Islam. Christianity might perhaps at some point revert to advocating legal practices banned (by the Christian church) in England 800 years ago, revert to the same degree of control freakery it had back then, revert to the extremely limited sexed roles it permitted back them, spawn a sizable proportion of followers who condone the use of violence to impose theocracy and a smaller amount eager to use it...it might do these things, and if it did then I'd consider it as much of a threat as Islam is. But I'd be very surprised if it happened.
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Plenty of militant christians in the US, and they've been killing people over things like abortion for just as long as we've been fighting islamic extremism. Islam isn't a threat. Extremism is a threat.

Problem is extremism will always exist in some area or another...
 
bigredshark said:
Plenty of militant christians in the US, and they've been killing people over things like abortion for just as long as we've been fighting islamic extremism. Islam isn't a threat. Extremism is a threat.

Problem is extremism will always exist in some area or another...
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So Christianity might be as much of a threat as Islam in the USA. I don't live in the USA.

I consider less extreme Muslims to be more of a threat, because they're far more likely to succeed. So I reject your assertion that extremism is the threat. It isn't, because it is met with determined opposition. It only works on a very small scale (e.g. a protection racket extorting money from local businesses) or a very large scale (e.g. major attacks daily, and even that didn't work when it was tried in WW2).
 
Angilion said:
So Christianity might be as much of a threat as Islam in the USA. I don't live in the USA.

I consider less extreme Muslims to be more of a threat, because they're far more likely to succeed. So I reject your assertion that extremism is the threat. It isn't, because it is met with determined opposition. It only works on a very small scale (e.g. a protection racket extorting money from local businesses) or a very large scale (e.g. major attacks daily, and even that didn't work when it was tried in WW2).
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Well I guess if you believe moderate muslims have a plot to take over the world. Which I'm just not going to discuss as if you've formed that opinion I don't see anything other than an argument down that road...
 
Angilion said:
So Christianity might be as much of a threat as Islam in the USA. I don't live in the USA.

I consider less extreme Muslims to be more of a threat, because they're far more likely to succeed. So I reject your assertion that extremism is the threat. It isn't, because it is met with determined opposition. It only works on a very small scale (e.g. a protection racket extorting money from local businesses) or a very large scale (e.g. major attacks daily, and even that didn't work when it was tried in WW2).
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But if the Muslim is not an extremist then he his unlikely to want to blow anyone up or commit any other attrocity. So I don't see how you would be less afraid of more moderate Muslims. Sounds a little like bigotry to me.
 
really wouldnt fancy the polices job of covering any protest in wooton basset.

i can just imagine a bunch of angry squaddies taking umbrage to anything offensive to their fallen comrades. result utter carnage
 
Alex_6n2 said:
Yes actually I do care, I don't really understand why you attempted to make some form of racist dig at me? People are people, regardless or race colour or religious belief. If we could help disband every oppressive regime then I don't see why we shouldn't. However certain things just aren't possible. Yes, lets go invade North Korea and start a really massive conflict.
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Because you're coming across as massively condescending. The fact that they're Muslims means what? That they take priority to the level of a couple of wars to help? Trillions of dollars from the U.S. taxpayer? Whenever Muslims are involved, people always let their grudge against religion or against this particular religion cloud their view and just automatically assume that hey, its Muslims, they must be under oppression.

And I don't think we should go around disbanding regimes even if we could. The fact is we can't anyway and its fundamentally the wrong thing to do. It's evil and arrogant to think that a load of countries deserve to be plunged into (inevitable) wars because ultimately the "ends justify the means".

As far as I am aware we are in Zimbabwe helping, through aid and charities and the like.
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Lol, yeah and that's working really well. :rolleyes:

Alex_6n2 said:
You clearly have very few morals if you can honestly sit there and say you don't care about people that are suffering from human rights abuses. Good on you... :/
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No, guess what, I don't care because its completely irrational to worry about people suffering when its not your responsibility and has nothing to do with your country.

Not everywhere in the world can be a democratic utopia all at once and firing up random conflicts isn't the way to achieve it anyway.

The next best thing that can be done would be to stop interfering in other country's affairs. That way this nation can't be blamed for the next lot of burnt and disfigured Afghan civilians. And those civilians don't want us there anyway, they pretty much hate us for the 'help' we've given them. Go ask the people of Afghanistan whether they wanted this war and see how a lot of them feel.
 
bigredshark said:
Well I guess if you believe moderate muslims have a plot to take over the world. Which I'm just not going to discuss as if you've formed that opinion I don't see anything other than an argument down that road...
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You're the one who's talking about a plot, not me.

Have you not noticed that Islam is a growing religion? Are you not aware that it includes seeking converts?
 
Gaidin109 said:
But if the Muslim is not an extremist then he his unlikely to want to blow anyone up or commit any other attrocity. So I don't see how you would be less afraid of more moderate Muslims. Sounds a little like bigotry to me.
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I explained why. Your failure to understand simple English is not bigotry on my part. Accusing me of bigotry is an effective route for you to take if you know you don't have a rational counter-argument, though. Is that what you're doing?
 
Chimerical said:
Because you're coming across as massively condescending. The fact that they're Muslims means what? That they take priority to the level of a couple of wars to help? Trillions of dollars from the U.S. taxpayer? Whenever Muslims are involved, people always let their grudge against religion or against this particular religion cloud their view and just automatically assume that hey, its Muslims, they must be under oppression.
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The fact that they're Muslims means nothing. I have made no distinction on that fact, so stop pulling things out of your behind. If such a large number of people were acting in the same way but under a different religion it would make no difference, the reaction would be the same. Muslims are just the current "trend" for this kind of conflict at the current time. Other people from different religions have done similar things in history and been met with the same resistance.


Chimerical said:
Lol, yeah and that's working really well. :rolleyes:
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So if you had the chance to help make one persons life better, even if the general situation would remain unchanged, you wouldn't help them? You think the work of charities are pointless then I guess? Such a nice bloke.


Chimerical said:
No, guess what, I don't care because its completely irrational to worry about people suffering when its not your responsibility and has nothing to do with your country.

Not everywhere in the world can be a democratic utopia all at once and firing up random conflicts isn't the way to achieve it anyway.

The next best thing that can be done would be to stop interfering in other country's affairs. That way this nation can't be blamed for the next lot of burnt and disfigured Afghan civilians. And those civilians don't want us there anyway, they pretty much hate us for the 'help' we've given them. Go ask the people of Afghanistan whether they wanted this war and see how a lot of them feel.
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What if the conflict in other countries eventually perpetuates and ends up spilling over into your country? Will you care then? The world is a lot smaller than it use to be and very complex in the way it operates. Conflicts in far away countries have a global effect, as well as a local one.

Watched Ross Kemp? He interviews a number of Afghan civilians and they all have the same opinion that they want ISAF forces to stay and help get rid of the Taliban. They don't like the war, granted, but they can't win it on their own.
 
Angilion said:
I explained why. Your failure to understand simple English is not bigotry on my part. Accusing me of bigotry is an effective route for you to take if you know you don't have a rational counter-argument, though. Is that what you're doing?
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Angilion said:
I consider less extreme Muslims to be more of a threat, because they're far more likely to succeed. So I reject your assertion that extremism is the threat. It isn't, because it is met with determined opposition. It only works on a very small scale (e.g. a protection racket extorting money from local businesses) or a very large scale (e.g. major attacks daily, and even that didn't work when it was tried in WW2).
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Chill out. I said that it sounds like bigotry, not that you are one.
I understand English perfectly well thankyou.
If you would explain how a moderate (less extreme) muslim is going to succeed at terrorism, when moderates are by definition not attempting such a thing in the first place.
Are you suggesting that Muslims in general are attempting some kind of domination by some insidious and nefarious way that we are unaware of?

Your statement above, I quote; "I consider less extreme Muslims to be more of a threat, because they're far more likely to succeed." suggests in plain english that you fear the threat posed by the moderate muslim population. If you would explain your position more clearly for us poor illiterates I would appreciate it. :D


this post would also suggest a view akin to prejudice.

Angilion said:
Some do...and they always say that at least part of the reason they're doing so because the extremists are making Islam look bad (as the Muslim Council of Great Britain did in this case).

So what they're objecting to is not attempts to conquer the world for Islam, but what they consider to be counter-productive attempts to conquer the world for Islam.
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you seem to be saying that the British Muslim Council only denounce such acts because it interferes with their own plans for world dominance.

 
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